Author Topic: The AVG  (Read 582 times)

Offline SAS_KID

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The AVG
« on: February 08, 2006, 12:16:40 AM »
which P40 did they fly from this game if any??? and when did we use the P40B???Besides the lend lease to Russian and New Zealand.
Quote from: hitech on Today at 09:27:26 AM
What utter and compete BS, quite frankly I should kick you off this bbs for this post.

The real truth is you do not like the answer.

HiTech

Offline Treize69

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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2006, 01:01:04 AM »
P-40B/C were the main type deployed at Pearl Harbor and at Clark Field, with a smattering of early model P-40Es. They were also used heavily stateside in home-defense and training squadrons until newer types came along. The 20th flew them and the E model out of Hamilton and Ontario fields in California until they were replaced by the P-38E in early 1942.

The AVG flew an export version of the P-40B, usually called the Hawk 81A-3 (what the Brits called the Tomahawk IIB). 100 were diverted from the RAF order by the US Government and se4nt to Rangoon for use by the Chinese Air Force. Which is why most sources agree that the camo scheme was in RAF colors, not USAAC colors. Hawk 81s had two Browning .50s and four wing guns chambered to fire the American .30. Several were chambered for the British .303 rifle cartridge, most of these were flown by the 3rd Squadron "Hells Angels. They also arrived in crates and void of radios. They had to be assembled and made combat ready right there in Rangoon, and then flown to their respective squadrons.

NZ wasn't the only commonwealth nation to use them too you know- the Canadians and South Africans, along with the RAF, flew them in North Africa until the Kittyhawks came along to replace them.
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Offline Jester

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The AVG
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2006, 01:58:41 AM »
Actually, IIRC, the P-40C IS the export version of the P-40B Sent to the British.  NO, P-40B's were ever delivered to the AVG.

If fact the P-40's delivered to the AVG had the British RAF Temperate Camoflauge colors on them.

The Tomahawk was just the Briish name for it. Later versions each had their standard names from the British as well.

P-40E = Warhawk
P-40L/N = Kittyhawk
Lt. JESTER
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WEBSITE:  www.VF10.org

Offline Treize69

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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2006, 12:04:22 PM »
As I understand it, only the Americans called them Warhawks, everything from the E on was a Kittyhawk to the Commonwealth.

But I'm by no means a P-40 expert, just trying to recall the info from the squadron-signal "P-40 in action" that I haven't seen in 10 years. :)
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Offline Widewing

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The AVG
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2006, 06:34:46 PM »
Ok guys, you almost have it right....

AVG Tomahawks were NOT Tomahawk IIBs, nor P-40Bs, or even P-40Cs. They were unique in that they were built to the Chinese contract.

British serial numbers were assigned to the Chinese fighters, but the serial numbers existed on paper only as the aircraft were not yet in production. When production did get underway, the Chinese aircraft would be different than those being made on the same line for the Brits.

Curtiss assigned these Tomahawks the different factory designation H81-A3. British Tomahawk IIBs were designated H81-A2. The reason for this is that these fighters were manufactured using a mix of components from P-40B and Tomahawk IIA spares as well as newer components. In addition, the Chinese aircraft had completely different fuel systems, virtually identical to the P-40B. Speculation is that Curtiss saw an opportunity to use the stockpiled spares, which had already been paid for at lower rates.

All 100 Tomahawks were delivered without normal "Government supplied equipment". That means that they were devoid of armament, radios and gunsights. It was up to Chennault's people to locate and procure these items, which is why some Tomahawks were armed with .30 and some with .303 caliber MGs. Two or three were armed with 7.92mm guns (standard Chinese rifle caliber).

Engines were built by Allison on a seperate assembly line. Since all of Allison's production was already earmarked and bound to existing contracts, Allison used a unique method to provide the 100 engines required. Each engine was assembled using parts rejected for the main assembly line due to tolerance issues. To do this it required hand fitting of components. Essentially, these engines would be built to tighter producton tolerances than the engines coming off of the main production line. When tested on the factory dyno, these engines proved to produce substantially more horsepower than the standard engine, roughly 200 hp more on average. Erik Shilling and Dick Rossi have both confirmed that the Tomahawks, even with tired engines, were marginally faster than the P-40Es received in the Spring of 1942. Shilling's stripped down, photo-recce bird was reported as being able to edge above 370 mph TAS. Shilling filled seams with auto-body filler and sanded joints smooth. Finally, the aircraft was waxed to a high gloss. This combination of added power, lower drag and weight gave the recce Tomahawk outstanding performance for its day. Standard AVG Tomahawks, in good tune, were reported to be able to commonly edge up to 360 mph TAS.

There was a major drawback to the extra horsepower. Despite that fact that the dyno tests revealed that these engines produced as much as 220 hp more than the production line V-1710-33s, Allison didn't beef up the reduction gearbox. This leads to a fact not picked up on as significant by historians. The AVG suffered a very high rate of reduction gear failures. This is better understood when you realize that the older style reduction gear (used weaker spiral type gears) was rated for no more than 1,100 hp. With as much as 1,220 hp on tap, the reduction gearbox was over-stressed and frequently stripped gears. Later models, with 1,200 hp engines were fitted with a much stronger spur gear design that could handle up to 1,600 hp. This is the major reason that the nose is shorter from the P-40D onward.

Our P-40B more closely represents the AVG fighter than it does a Tomahawk IIB. However, there are serious issues with its horsepower as the AH2 P-40B is at least 20 mph slower than a real P-40B, and probably 30 mph slower than the AVG's fighters. The AH2 P-40B can do no better than 332 mph at its best altitude.

Both Dan Ford and I have researched this to death. With help from Shilling and Rossi, we were able to track down the facts. Dan and I are in agreement as to the fact that the AVG flew unique aircraft, different from both RAF and USAAF versions of the H81.

By the way, Britain named the H81 series Tomahawks and the H87 series were named Kittyhawks. US P-40s, beginning with the P-40E were called Warhawks, but this name was almost never used by American pilots and ground crews, who would generally just call them P-40s.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: February 08, 2006, 06:37:06 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Treize69

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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2006, 06:36:33 PM »
Wow, I think I was pretty close working totally from memory. :)

Thanks widewing :aok
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Offline SAS_KID

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The AVG
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2006, 08:06:20 PM »
then why does the P-40E have the AVG skins than the B for I thought the E came in after the group was disbanded???
Quote from: hitech on Today at 09:27:26 AM
What utter and compete BS, quite frankly I should kick you off this bbs for this post.

The real truth is you do not like the answer.

HiTech

Offline 38ruk

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The AVG
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2006, 10:25:49 PM »
great info widewing

Offline Treize69

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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2006, 10:27:20 PM »
They received several Es shortly before they disbanded, but all the ones they had were numbered 100 or higher. They had to send several pilots to Africa to fly them back via India in the spring of '42.

I think the one skinned in game is #47, which was a Tomahawk flown by John Petach.
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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2006, 11:08:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Treize69
They received several Es shortly before they disbanded, but all the ones they had were numbered 100 or higher. They had to send several pilots to Africa to fly them back via India in the spring of '42.

I think the one skinned in game is #47, which was a Tomahawk flown by John Petach.


They began getting P-40Es in April of 1942. However, they initially had to send pilots to Africa to get them. R.T. Smith was part of the first group of pilots to go fetch P-40s and return. These P-40Es were greeted with enthusiasm as they were plumbed for an external tank and could carry a 500 lb bomb. Their Tomahawks could do neither. P-40Es allowed the AVG to actively support the Chinese army by attacking Japanese ground forces. The Japanese suffered a notable defeat at the Salween gorge, largely due to air attacks by the AVG.

Truekill did a P-40E skin as well. However, he used a camo pattern common to modern airshow warbirds. No AVG P-40Es were painted in RAF camo patterns. All were standard USAAF Olive Drab.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Treize69

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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2006, 12:48:50 AM »
Charlie Bond was also one of the pilots sent to get them, I remember reading the story in his published diary some time ago. And it was the P-40Es that made the famous attack on the Japanese column at the Salween Gorge.

Wasn't it John Blackburn who was killed when he crashed his P-40E into Lake Kunming on a training flight?
Treize (pronounced 'trays')- because 'Treisprezece' is too long and even harder to pronounce.

Moartea bolșevicilor.