How striving for fair fights can ruin fights...

[TexMurphy]

Please read the entire post before you start posting replies like "wtf do you want lame fights!?!?!?!?".

What I wana do with this post is to share my experiences, from another game, about "striving to keep funs fair and fight".

I used to play a space game called Jumpgate alot, some of you might have heard about it but propably not.

It was a space sim mmpog with heavy dose of PvP.

After some major issues around PvP where solved two major issues remained ganking (hoarding in our terminology) and tube camping (camping the launch tubes, in other words vulching).

Most pilots enoyed smaller fights that where fair and evenly matched in numbers. The reality wasnt like that though since numbers on your side ment bigger chance to win and everyone wants to win. So the fleets kept growing and growing.

Tubcamping was actually a bigger issue since you had to take off from the base you landed at.

Anyways the strive to have fun lead to a spiral of high horsing amongst the squadron leaders of the biggest side. Everyone wanted to play fair, keep it even inorder to have more fun.

The squadleaders tried to keep the number of ships in the fleets that flew around looking for each other ballanced. It resulted in rediculous discussions between the sides involved.

"We are only 10 ships make sure you guys dont bring more then 10".

When that was agreed on and the fight actually started there was always some little squad, lone pilot or whom ever that showed up. Suddenly it was 11v10 and the whining started. "WTF YOU SAID YOU WHERE GONNA KEEP IT EVEN YOU butterIN LAMER!!!!".

Then you had the situations where there was just 2-3 guys on one side docked at one station and 10 outside. Inorder to keep it fair people started negotiating duels to keep it 1v1 where no one would intervene. Problem was here that often a 3rd or 4th party would show up in the area and start shooting. Suddenly the furball was on and the guys in the duel got tangled into it. Result "OMFG YOU LAMERS JUMP THE DUEL!!!!"

In the AvA we want to avoid fights that are like in the MA. We want them to be more fair and more gentlemanish. That imho is fine. I dont like vulching anymore then any of you. I dont like *always* having to fight 3 to 1 odds.

But when I see talk like "Lets keep the fights under 8k", all the talk about not vulching and keeping the sides ballanced in numbers I do get scary flashbacks.

Personally the single worst thing I know in multiplayer games is whining. Id much rather fight in 1 to 2 odds and be vulched then having someone rant whines at me. I personally try to fly in a way so that there is little risk that I am on the reciving end of whing.

While I do think vulching is cheap I dont see how vulching can ever be 100% avoided. For example if there is a deck fight over a base and Im chasing a spit over the field and another one is just taking off there is always the risk that I loose track of "my spit" and kill the spit who is taking off.

Sure you might say he is in flight no problems. But thats the point where is the line drawn? Is it standing still, is it gears on the runway or is it before he is in a manouverable state?

There will always be situations that are borderline.

The more the high horsing about maintaining the "fair fight" the more situations there are to whine about.

Personally I do think the best way to achive fun and fair fights is to work the attitude and not the rules.

At least for me the attitue that makes online gaming enjoyable is when I face enemies with a "Win some, loose some, give some, take some" attitude.

Enjoying winning is easy, enjoying loosnig is much more important.

Not striving after doing the dweebish stuff is important but everyone will due to situation do it and be on the reciving end of it. If everyone realizes they arent perfect either and can enjoy that fact and the fact that their enemy isnt either then it will be more fun.

Everyone shoots a shot that could be classified as a ho at times. Be it in a rope and dope that wasnt as perfectly executed as you wanted and realizing in the last moment that you ran right into a ho situation or be it a deck fight where you run totally out of E and have nowhere to go but through an enemy.

Everyone will take a shot that could be classified as a vulch, by someone, as long as there are fights on deck level over fields.

Not untill the players have realized that everyone can do a mistake, including them selfs, which can lead to an act that is "unfun" can fights be fun and fair.

When it happens let it go. Its not always about you, people arnt always out to activly destroy your enjoyment of the game. There are so many factors and situations in a fight that even the best people can make an act which is borderline (and hence can be interperted by you as cross the line).

Tex

[KONG1]

Ultimately the only thing a person can do is decide how they will conduct themselves and do so regardless of the behaviors of others.  Just like in RL

[Mister Fork]

Wow. Kong used two whole sentences... almost

I understand your POV on this Tex. I do think the AvA arena balances out the gameplay.  Hording, vulching, camping, either way, it's poor gameplay, but it's definately not the norm.

When I see a 1v1 battle going on, I always Always ask - do you need help? If the player does (usually they ask even before I can say something), I give a hand.  To the opponent - he has to be watching his DAR AT the same time he's dogfighting. I do. Situational awareness.  It's similar to WWII and pilots asking for sit-reps to a local air controller.

Dar keeps us alive. Ignore it, it'll kill you.  I.e. you're dog fighting a lone 109 in your Spitfire, gaining advantage and his two squad-mates show up.  As a squaddie, I would EXPECT them to help.  As the Allied pilot, I SHOULD, every once in a while take a quick peek at DAR.  It would be equivalent of listening to the forward air controller announcing contact reports over the radio.  Tune out the contacts, or in our case, RADAR on your map, consider yourself flying with blinders on. And we all know what happens when you get target fixation.

Another point, squads in any area are like the modern gangs, but more structured.  You always help out a brother in need, so when it appears like it's a 3 or 4 on 1, chances are you're still fighting the same guy, but his pals are bothering you so he can line up the kill.  As a former JG54 pilot, it was a classic act.  Beat up the opponent, let the guy who deserves the kill close in but keep your enemy boxed in.

Also, engagment tactics are what they are. Many, and I mean even the best pilots in WWII used a HO shot or snapshot at an initial merge to wound their opponent or force them into a counter-move to take advantage of positioning.   An opponent caught by a HO shot wounded makes a much easier kill. You just gotta be careful enough not to be caught by that manouver.

And you're right - people are not out there to actively destroy our fun.  This IS a game after all, and a game is a recreational activity involving one or more players.  In Aces High, it can get personal because we often befriend one another and get passionate about how we play...sometimes a little too much.

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by KONG1
Ultimately the only thing a person can do is decide how they will conduct themselves and do so regardless of the behaviors of others.  Just like in RL

[Glasses]

In AvA is unrealistic to expect at US prime time to have more LW fighters than Allies flying around.  Most of the  dedicated LW guys are either in Europe or too few when it's 6PM in the East Coast.  

That's something you'll have to contend, for me at least is fun whenever I'm out numbered to know that I need  to set up and get a better advantage over the enemy. In either case if you don't get time to climb to at least 15k you're asking to get bounced by Mustangs and T'bolts.  Altitude gives you options to engage in the wobblie 190s and 109s, cus without airspeed even though these two former aircraft weigh in as many as  4klbs more they perform in AH like  a Pitts Special. So you need all the altitude and airspeed you can get to set up your attacks especially if you like lonewolfing, frankly I don't take many wingmen along simply because more often that not, they die   Only  when they know what to do in certain situations or people that I've flown enough that they can do it all by themselves without me telling them especifically what to do and thankfully most LW guys are like that.

What I'm trying to get at is if you're going at it alone against overwhelming odds get your arse to the stratosphere and keep your eyeballs and Clipboard handy so you can actually see where the ****ers are going to.
 I always while looking at a sector where a radar con might be I always look hi first  and put him at either the 11 o clk or 2 clk posit so I can then make a sideways pass since, I've learned that direct 6 clk approaches means that if he breaks either way you'll lose him, as opposed to  you intercepting it from a quater posit which will give you after all a larger target to hit  while screaming in a 400mph and expose the vulnerable upper part of the aircraft. I've noticed recently that the German 20s don't do much from dead 6 but when fired from a deflection shot very often aiming for the cockpit the enemy blows up rather quickly, especially when a  190 is used with 4 20mm cannons. Either way check hi first to see if the con is there then check low. Most of the time the guy will be lower, but there's always the possibility that he's higher, that's when you put your crate due SE and head back to France for more air. Sure , both LW planes will perform like an asfixiated  diabetic weighing 400lbs while being in the Mohave at 110degrees, but you'll at least have more options to roll scissor or dive or pray or crapping your virtual underpants,anywho just climb and quit yer whinin'.

[Big G]

I dissagree with Kong