Author Topic: Civil War Question  (Read 802 times)

Offline SMIDSY

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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2006, 06:49:41 AM »
i would like to comment on an aspect of the bayonet charge: the reason it rarely results in mass casuatlies is that the sight of cold steel pointing towards your face persuades one side or the other to immediately seek an urgent appointment elsewhere, they would run away rather than face the bayonet.


also, lasersailor, they would almost never stop at 40 yards, that is WAY too close for even nepolianic tactics using smoothebore weapons. a normal range was about 75 yards, the generals werent THAT stupid. the only unit that i know of that regularly got this close before shooting was the Federal "Irish Bragade" (FAH ABALAH!!) who were issued smoothebore muskets that fired one large ball and three smaller balls, this was not a mistake however. the commanding officer, Thomas Mahr, wanted his men to get in nice and close and rip through the enemy lines with massed buck and ball fire (as the ammunition type was called). this tactic was extremely effective. because of this, the Irish Brigade was one of the most feared units in the ACW.



THE TYRANT OF THE FORUMS HAS SPOKEN!!!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 06:54:43 AM by SMIDSY »

Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2006, 09:44:28 AM »
I saw a good reason in modern times when I was serving in the army reserve here.  Just after a firing practice on the range one of the NCO's threw a bottle onto the bank behind the butts and tried to hit it with his Browning Hi Power. Someone else tried with an SMG. Soon it was evident that the safest place to stand was beside the bottle! Eventually the issue was settled with a single round from .303 Lee Enfield rifle.

That's why rifles are alway better in most military situations in the past or today.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2006, 09:48:07 AM »
Interesting subject... everyone is pretty much on the money.   I might add that most generals and military thinkers did not want troops to have rapid firing weapons... the most vulnerable part of the army was the supplyu line... they feared that troops with rapid fire arms would burn through ammo faster than it could be supplied.

As for revolvers... they were not uncommon for troops to carry but were private purchases.

The walker colt was not a rival in power for the modern 44 mag... it may have reached some 44 mag velocity but only with a round ball of half the weight of modern bullets.

A good man with a 44 black powder revolver should be able to wound or kill at up to 100 yards.   moving targets at close range were problematic.

The most common jam that a black powder percussion revolver had was the spent percussion cap falling into the works and jamming up the hand.

Southern raiders were the biggest users of revolvers as a rapid fire hit and run weapon..  just like in the movies like the outlaw josie whales.... they carried up to 6 revolvers each and rode in fast and with the reigns in their teeth...  truth is tho... they killed a lot more unarmed prisoners with those revolvers than soldiers in a fight.  

The southern raiders like blood bill and quantrill were real.  They are probly responsible for revolver/handgun being the gun that is associated with the outlaw gangs of the late 19th century.   Jesse james and most of the other gangs all rode with southern raiders in the civil war.   They took their bloody tactics with them to civilian life.   the first bank robbery and the first train robbery were done by these southern raiders during the war.

Southern raiders were extremely tough men who would fight in groups of up to 400 men but usually more like a couple dozen or so.  They would hide out in the mountains and backwoods in the winter.

lazs

Offline USHilDvl

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« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2006, 09:56:59 AM »
IMO...

1)  Range

2)  Knockdown power

3)  Accuracy

4)  Expense

5)  Status


As for bayonets...as I recall, almost all modern historical analysis (no, I cannot cite references, just sharing my most current understanding) has concluded that, while bayonets are a powerful psychological weapon for BOTH sides (but in different ways), they simply did not result in statistically significant numbers of wounded or dead, as relates to the performance of other weapons.  

Of course, those who were stuck with one would have considered the event 'significant', so take the word in context.  :D


Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2006, 11:40:22 AM »
Quote
Interesting subject... everyone is pretty much on the money. I might add that most generals and military thinkers did not want troops to have rapid firing weapons... the most vulnerable part of the army was the supplyu line... they feared that troops with rapid fire arms would burn through ammo faster than it could be supplied.


That is, until the Vietnam War, when everything went to hell.
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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2006, 06:56:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Mostly right on the money.  But then one expects that from Widewing.  However, a couple of clarifications ..........

Cap and ball pistols dont use "wadding" when loaded.

Although I dont think it was intended, I got the impression from that post that cartridge rifles were primarily cavalry weapons.  I dont know enough to comment either way on most of them, but I would suspect that would not be true of the Henry.  Firstly because its a long rifle, secondly because it has no forestock.  It was designed to be shot from a rest.  The "follower" in the ammo tube is exposed and will catch on your hand if you try to hold it like a normal rifle, not to mention that you'll get burned from the hot metal unless you wear gloves.  While the 1860 Henry rifle was an incredible piece of work, it would be very difficult to shoot from the saddle.


While I didn't mention wadding, it is true that wadding wasn't used in revolvers of the era. I do use wadding in my reproductions, specifically Wonder Wads between the powder and ball. These seal the chambers better than grease (to prevent chain firing) and do not leave you with the mess grease produces.

Self-contained metallic cartridges were confined to rimfire types. Of these, the .52 caliber Spencer rimfire and the Henry .44 rimfire were the most common. Spencer carbines were common to cavalry units from early 1863 on. Some infantry regiments were issued Spencer rifles, usually purchased by the unit's sponsoring state. I do not know of any regiments within the Army of the Potomac that were equipped with Henry rifles. However, at least one Illinois regiment in the Army of the Cumberland purchased their own Henrys and used them to very great effect during the battle of Chickamauga. History says that the Confederates referred to the Henry as "that damned rifle they loaded on Sunday and fired all week."

There were other metallic cartridge carbines, such as the Burnside and Maynard. However, these were primed by the standard musket cap, not having internal priming (self-contained centerfire cartridges were still a few years away).

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

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YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2006, 07:36:06 PM »
Yes, I use wonder wads myself, but I dont really consider that "wadding" in the traditional sense.  I even use them in my BP loaded cartridges to help keep the barrels relatively clean.  During our exhibitions, I might fire 100 rounds a day through the guns for 2 days straight, with only minor cleanup in between.  I keep a spray can of "gun scrubber" with me, strip the guns down and spray them good then let air dry and wipe down with oil to keep them overnight.  Otherwise they will rust overnight here.  The wonder wads really help keep things working.

Offline SMIDSY

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« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2006, 09:26:26 AM »
there was a unit under the command of a man by the name of Wilder, who armed his men with, i think, spencer repeating rifles at his own expence. his regiment held off an entire confederate division for 1 day. it could have held out alone for longer but we will never know because it was reinforced.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 09:37:35 AM by SMIDSY »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2006, 09:31:26 AM »
wide.... I believe that it was the spencer that the CSA refered to as the rifle that was loaded on sunday and shot all week.

There were also a few oddball breech loaded cap and ball rifles.  The most common was the sharps rifle.  it used paper cartriges.... more than 100,000 sharps rifles were in service

metalic cartriges were pretty weak rimfire jobs and often tore the rim and jammed on extraction attempts.

lazs

Offline SMIDSY

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« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2006, 09:36:28 AM »
THATS THE ONE!! it was the sharps rifle that wilder armed his men with. and i am absolutly sure that the "rifle that you load on sunday and fire all week" was the henry.

Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2006, 09:43:01 AM »
Quote
Also, musket balls cost less than bullets.


Black powder revolvers were also loaded with patch and ball.

And cost has nothing to do with it. The only difference in cost was in the production of the actual molds. Which was minor when you take into consideration production numbers.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2006, 09:49:26 AM »
most people say it was the 15 shot henry but the spencer was out first soo... I figure that the guys who attribute it to the spencer have a better case.

lazs

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2006, 09:58:39 AM »
A quick copy and paste........................ .......
"Another repeater held in high esteem was the .44 caliber Henry Rifle. Carrying 16 shots, it too put a Confederate opponent at a severe disadvantage. While only 10,000 Henry Rifles were made, and only 1,731 purchased by the government, their presence on the battlefield was felt by the Confederates. Stated one of General William T. Sherman's soldiers: "I think the Johnnys are getting rattled; they are afraid of our repeating rifles. They say we are not fair, that we have guns that we load up on Sunday and shoot all the rest of the week." "
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2006, 10:02:01 AM »
Another...................... ............................. .....

"The most prolific maker of handguns in the Civil War era was Samuel Colt. During the conflict his Hartford, Connecticut firm produced nearly 150,000 .44 caliber six-shot revolvers (the 1860 "New Model Army"). The vast majority of them went to the Union war effort, but Colt sold arms to all buyers until a few days after the firing on Ft. Sumter. These guns were durable and powerful. From 16 yards, a bullet from a Colt Army revolver penetrated seven white pine boards, each 3/4" thick, separated by one inch of dead space between them. Colt also manufactured a "Navy" model revolver in .36 caliber. Introduced in 1851, the Navy was widely available in the South, and a favorite arm of Confederate horsemen. Before the war's end, 185,000 Navy revolvers had been produced.

Another major supplier of revolvers to the Federal government was the firm of E. Remington and Sons, of Ilion, New York. Beginning in 1858, Remington introduced an improved series of simplified revolver designs that featured a solid frame, which made the arm stronger and cheaper to produce than its primary competitor, the Colt. The War Department purchased approximately 114,000 .44 and .36 caliber Remington revolvers at $12.00 per gun, while Colt was still charging $25.00 for their New Model Army.

This considerable difference in price cost Colt's much government business during the latter half of the war. Less expensive than a Colt, the Remington was an eminently serviceable handgun. At the close of the conflict, when discharged Federal cavalrymen were given the option to purchase their issue sidearm, more Remingtons were sold than Colts.

A variety of other firms also supplied revolvers to the Federal forces in limited numbers. Whitney, Allen, Savage and others provided less than 40,000. Smith and Wesson made small, metallic cartridge .22 and .32 caliber revolvers during this time, and these were sold in small lots or purchased privately.

Many foreign-made revolvers were imported and used by both sides. The French Lefaucheux "pin-fire", which took a special .45 caliber cartridge, armed many Federal troops in the Western theater. The Confederates purchased several thousand 5-shot "Kerr" revolvers, and a number of other types as well. The best-known of these, however, was the Le Mat. Developed in pre-war New Orleans, Louisiana, by Dr. Alexander Le Mat, this pistol fired nine .42 caliber bullets in addition to a .63 caliber shotgun charge.

Although a colorful pistol, and associated with such personalities as Confederate generals P.G.T.Beauregard, J.E.B. Stuart, and Captain Henry Wirz, relatively few were manufactured. Production problems proved difficult to overcome, and less than 3,000 were produced in France and England.

Confederates also made their own revolvers, although in numbers far short of Federal production. It is estimated that less than 10,000 Confederate handguns were manufactured, mostly in Georgia. Southern arms-makers were cursed with a lack of proper materials to work with. Steel was not available, and brass and iron were often substituted. Brass was scarce, and the bells of many Southern churches were donated "for the Cause" and melted down to supply it. That brass became pistol frames in some Confederate revolvers.

The most successful Confederate revolver maker was the firm of Griswold and Gunnison. Between July of 1862 and November, 1864, nearly 3,600 pistols were produced in Griswoldville, near Macon (about 70 miles south of Atlanta). "Griswolds", as they were called, were .36 caliber brass-framed copies of the Colt Navy. While production totals do not compare favorably with that of the Colt company in Connecticut, it is interesting to note the following: The Griswold factory was operated by 24 people, 22 of whom were slaves!

Another Confederate firm, Spiller and Burr, produced a solid-frame Whitney pattern .36 caliber revolver. They made around 750 brass-framed copies in Atlanta. Production was unbearably slow, however, and the Confederate government bought the facility and moved it to Macon. There another 689 guns were completed before December of 1864. "
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2006, 10:03:29 AM »
And last , but not least, some food for thought...................... ........................:)

"By December of 1864, arms were no longer in short supply. The production ability of Northern industry, coupled with massive importations of arms by both sides, led to a surplus of Civil War-era small arms that existed well into the second decade of the twentieth century. Even now, weapons from the era are occasionally discovered. If you find one, treat it carefully. The last shot of the Civil War may not yet have been fired."
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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