Author Topic: Question about the early P-38's  (Read 1377 times)

Offline hogenbor

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Question about the early P-38's
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2006, 08:46:26 AM »
'Turbocompresseur' How delightfully French :aok

The details of the British P-38's elude me, but I guess it is 'Googleable' in seconds. Or I wait until Widewing fills in the details :D The Brits also took over P-39's and P-40's didn't they? I've seen pics of P-39's in RAF markings.

Straffo, I wonder why the RAF would use P-38/F-5's when they had Spits and Mossies for that role. Do you know?

Edit, I indeed found the story in seconds:

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_7.html

Note in particular the comment of the 'castrated' P-38... no turbochargers and two right handed engines!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 08:49:09 AM by hogenbor »

Offline F4UDOA

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Question about the early P-38's
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2006, 09:00:49 AM »
Bozon,

The Brits tested the P-38F and liked a quite a bit for a large aircraft. I do not know if they ever took it into combat.

Offline Guppy35

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Question about the early P-38's
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2006, 10:08:33 AM »
RAF rejected the 38s they were offered.  The French operated recce 38s.  The RAAF operated some hand me over recce Lightnings they got from 5th AF.

I don't think anyone else operated fighter variants outside of the USAAF during WW2.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Treize69

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Question about the early P-38's
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2006, 10:15:10 AM »
Brits took off the superchargers, made Lockheed change it so both engines rotated in the same direction, and changed the armament to Brit-standard guns.

Needless to say, its perfomance sucked and it was rejected. USAAF took over the order, removed the guns, restored the 'handed' propellors (but left off the 'chargers), then used them as test airctaft or inflicted them on advanced students as type-trainers. They were known as 'castrated lightnings'.
Treize (pronounced 'trays')- because 'Treisprezece' is too long and even harder to pronounce.

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Offline bozon

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Question about the early P-38's
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2006, 03:36:07 PM »
thanks
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline HoHun

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Question about the early P-38's
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2006, 03:44:43 PM »
Hi Treize,

>Needless to say, its perfomance sucked and it was rejected.

Hm, relying on Baugher's article, I can't blame the British for ordering the turbocharger-less Lightning I in early 1940 when they were guaranteed a top speed of 400 mph @ 16900 ft. That was way ahead of any service aircraft of the time, and it was better than what the Spitfire V running at +16 lbs/sqin offered two and a half years later.

(The use of an un-turbocharged Allision not only reduced weight, but also increased total engine output by the exhaust thrust, so both climb and top speed improved by the omission of the turbo-supercharger. Below full throttle height, that is - and in early 1940, there was probably not much reason to expect the combat altitude to increase the way they eventually did.)

The decision for equal-handed engines is understandable as well as the vast majority of all twin-engined aircraft of that period handled quite well with both engines turning in the same direction. I'm not even sure that the bad reputation of the Lightning I's handling qualities is fully deserved - of course handed engines greatly reduce the pilot workload and probably helped to ameliorate some quirks of the basic airframe, but I didn't get the impression that we're talking about prohibitively evil characteristics, like for example the Me 210 demonstrated.

The very quick rejection of the Lightning I is a bit surprising, and it would be interesting to learn more about it. Could it have been a simple failure to match guaranteed performance? The 400 mph figure does not sound all that bad considering the difficult situation of the RAF in 1942!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline F4UDOA

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Question about the early P-38's
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2006, 03:56:35 PM »
Bozon,

Give me your email and I will send you the 9 page AFDU of the P-38F (American version) where it is tested against the Spit IX and partially against the FW190.

I also have a P-47 (B or C) AFDU where it is tested against the P-38F.

I will send them both.

Offline Squire

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Question about the early P-38's
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2006, 04:04:43 PM »
Lockheed had enough troubles keeping the orders filled for the USAAF in the PAC, MED and ETO in 1942, even if the Lightning I was ordered, I find it unlikely the RAF would have received them in the timeframe they wanted. That might also have had a part to play. In the end the only US fighter a/c the RAF used in the ETO in any quantity was the P-51B/D (Mustang III/IV) and the Mustang Is in the Recce role, with the P-40s going to the MED and to the RAAF in the PAC.

The P-39 was also rejected by the RAF after a short trial basis with one Sqn (UK based).

The P-47 was adopted for use with the RAF, and served in the CBI.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 04:08:53 PM by Squire »
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Offline straffo

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Question about the early P-38's
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2006, 04:18:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hogenbor
Straffo, I wonder why the RAF would use P-38/F-5's when they had Spits and Mossies for that role. Do you know?


They didn't wanted to take pictures from orbit  ?

:)

Seriously ,it was just an hypothesis

storch

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Question about the early P-38's
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2006, 05:11:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
RAF rejected the 38s they were offered.  The French operated recce 38s.  The RAAF operated some hand me over recce Lightnings they got from 5th AF.

I don't think anyone else operated fighter variants outside of the USAAF during WW2.
the italians operated one to fairly good effect

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Question about the early P-38's
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2006, 09:48:58 PM »
The Lightning didn't really meet the promised performance criteria. Besides, the British soon realized that low altitude performance wasn't what they needed.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Guppy35

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Question about the early P-38's
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2006, 10:43:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
the italians operated one to fairly good effect


Only if you are a fan of Martin Caiden's writing :)

One must have the Caiden vs the truth O'meter running at all times.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline bozon

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Question about the early P-38's
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2006, 08:02:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA
Bozon,

Give me your email and I will send you the 9 page AFDU of the P-38F (American version) where it is tested against the Spit IX and partially against the FW190.

I also have a P-47 (B or C) AFDU where it is tested against the P-38F.

I will send them both.

COOL, I'd love to read it.
My email is now updated in my user profile.

Bozon
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline gripen

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Question about the early P-38's
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2006, 02:17:17 PM »
Infact the A&AEE report on Lightning I is quite positive but IIRC the speeds were limited to something like 350mph due to reports from the states about the compressibility problems. Only two Lightning Is reached UK (no service use).

The Lightning II had turbochargers and handed engines (basicly similar as the P-38F). The BAC report on Lightning II can be found from here. None of the Lightning IIs reached UK (only testing in USA).

gripen