Author Topic: Unmanned drone guns only fire at 3 second burst intervals  (Read 3605 times)

Offline E25280

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Unmanned drone guns only fire at 3 second burst intervals
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2006, 03:00:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
E25280, you show instances of great numbers of bombers and very few deaths... Don't forget that the fighters weren't reported as shot down, either.

Keep in mind that these fighters had to shoot up most if not all of the bombers. They only had so much ammo, and by making attack runs on varying boxes/bombers they did as much damage as they could before running out of ammo. They did not suicidally press the attack, as AH bombers often force people to do.


The point I was trying to make is that the arguing about "super-bombers" tends to get a little whiny.  They were not easy to take down.  They did fire at long ranges.  They did kill fighters if the fighters weren't careful.  All things we see in AH.  I am not sure what you mean about "forcing" people in AH to suicidally press an attack.  Even in AH there are ways to attack bombers that will increase your odds of survival.  I just see so many people expecting to survive any encounter with bombers to the extent that it is laughable.  It isn't that bombers are over-modeled -- it is that some have the unrealistic expectation that bombers are/were/should be helpless.  Clearly this was not the case IRL and so shouldn't be in AH.

But, please, do not think I am trying to say bombers should be somehow invulnerable either.  I am just saying I don't think AH has them overly hard to kill as long as you don't go about it "suicidally".

Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
They had a lot of targets and relatively small ammo counts to shoot at them. Its reasonable that only so many bombers were killed, but many more were damaged. Unescorted daylight bombing almost brought the USAF bombing campain to its knees, due to losses of bombers. That speaks a bit on the effectiveness in WW2 of fighters vs bombers.


True, many bombers came back heavily damaged, but that isn't exactly the point.  In most AH sorties, you either come back or you don't.  Damage is next to meaningless if it is short of what is necessary to "kill" the bomber.

And IIRC, more bombers were damaged and destroyed by flak than by fighters.  Flak was much more accurate in daylight when they could actually see the bombers.  This too contributed to the very high losses.

Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
The BS we see in AH is speed related, not bomber power related.


I agree with you here.  IRL the bombers flew slower to conserve fuel and to make it easier to stay in a tight formation.  In AH, their speed does give the bombers an advantage they did not have IRL.  I personally do not see that as too large a deal given that most bombers are not flying in 60 plane raids either.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2006, 03:19:33 AM by E25280 »
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Offline E25280

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Re: Re: From WW2 Magazine . . .
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2006, 03:11:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
If it's the 1943 mission ,well ... gunnery was perhaps good but some bomber missed their target by 5 km.


It is referring to the April 4, 1943 mission.  The article does not say anything about the accuracy of the bombs on that particular mission.  From your comment, I assume it was quite poor indeed.
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Offline ChopSaw

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« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2006, 04:11:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SuperDud
Just do what I did and put him on the ignore list, let him cry to himself about how badly bombers have it.

If you've put me on an ignore list, which would please me, how is it you're attempting to respond?

For the record, I don't cry about how bad bombers have it.  I respond to people who cry about how bad the fighters have it against the bombers.  People who are poorly skilled in attacking bombers and want the bombers made easier for them to attack.

Offline B@tfinkV

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« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2006, 04:45:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChopSaw
whats a mug?



you drink coffee out of one.
 400 yrds on my tail, right where i want you... [/size]

Offline ChopSaw

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Unmanned drone guns only fire at 3 second burst intervals
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2006, 04:51:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Did I say that I wanted individual bombers perked? No, I did NOT. I said perk the formations. Big difference. These revisionist tactics may work elsewhere but not here, and certainly not with me. As long as you land one plane of your formation you get your spent perks back. The only "penalty" is that if you want to do something dumb and/or suicidal you need to decide if you want to spend the perks on a formation, or try it for free in a solo ship.

Fighters are supposed to operate at all altitudes - on the Russian front everything was down in the dirt. The use of heavy bombers, designed to run up high, at below 200 feet was not exactly routine duty in WW2. The comparison is inane.

As for ramming - since the head-on shot is the "best" for a fighter to take on our uber-gunned bombers, it does look curious when I see bombers turn into fighters - right into them - often away from their intended target. You do the math.

Just watch 999000 one evening to see the flak platform in action.

Please go back and read what you in fact did post on 3/18/2006 8:52 AM, third paragraph, last sentence which reads:  "Perk flights and watch these practices stop, and more logical plane choices start to be used."  You might be able to see how your intent could be mistaken.  After all, the only perk bomber currently in the game is perked for all three planes in a formation on an individual basis.  Lose one or two out of a formation and land one, you pay for the ones you've lost.  I am not a revisionist and resent the allegation.  You simply were not clear in what your intent was.  That having been said, I still think "perking formations" is a bad idea.  You said care needed to be taken not to "penalize the people who use bombers as intended".  I flew three missions today.  On one of them I got back with one plane.  On the other two I lost all my planes.  The first run was at 26,000 (an HQ run) and the last two were just above 14,000.  Your system would have penalized me on two of my runs when I was using bombers as intended.

When I spoke of fighter aircraft who suicide, I was thinking of the ones that like to do kamikaze runs on cv's.  They drop their loads just before disintegrating in the ships ack.  I don't think that was their intended use.  Before you go there, I'll say once again I do not advocate the use of heavy bombers as dive bombers and would like to see a solution to that problem.

Personally, very few fighters have tried to HO my bombers.  Those that do keep themselves far enough away and fast enough to preclude any attempt to ram them.  I hadn't realized it was a problem.  Still, it seems easy enough for a fighter to avoid the bomber.  If nothing else you could push on the stick and dive below them.  For the record a head on is ONE of the best for a fighter to vector in on.  Not THE best.  Certainly beats the six o'clock approach, but far from the best.

That flak platform really works?  Huh.  I'll keep watching for it.

Offline ChopSaw

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Unmanned drone guns only fire at 3 second burst intervals
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2006, 04:53:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
And this is where you are wrong.  

Karaya

As yet to be illustrated.

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2006, 08:23:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChopSaw
As yet to be illustrated.


Hmm.  You had NO IDEA of JG26 using HO tactics.  That is just the tip O' the iceberg.  You are a "know-it-all" in a World of "well-read" people.  When you sit back and really pine over that, the light will be brighter.  

You had NO IDEA of the Ki67's of being the fastest Bomber (234 is common knowledge and RARELY used, but you tried to save face for your error, and it backfired).   I can catch anything in a Hurricane except jets.   You sir, are not in a fighter to even approach the subject, anytime you need a "lesson", PM me for a DA tutorial.  

You are pretending to have this wealth of knowledge of being in a bomber but also have an "uncanny ability to be accurate in off-angles, etc."  The former is said to make up for that fact that in reality, it is really the opposite.   I have YET to be shot down by anyone (999000, tater, etc who are BETTER than yourself) using any angle, or HO, in this game.   But you have the ability to "toot your own horn".

Bombers are given more opportunity to survive, and it is wrong.  Right now, Buff's can drop bombs from less than 500 feet and not have any effects of damage.   Buff's can sink a CV in this game.  I'm still trying to find ONE documented case of a Level Bomber "Sinking a CV".   I won't even mention the "Dive Bombing Lancs" used by some to pad their scores.  

When you wake up and realize you have ME NOTHING, it will also become clear.  

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Offline Lye-El

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Unmanned drone guns only fire at 3 second burst intervals
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2006, 10:06:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChopSaw



Personally, very few fighters have tried to HO my bombers.  


That would be because the fighter and bomber just about have to be head on at the beginning. If you try to catch, then fly ahead of far enough to turn back into it for a head on attack, the bomber is back to it's field. Unless you a flying a 262.


i dont got enough perkies as it is and i like upen my lancs to kill 1 dang t 34 or wirble its fun droping 42 bombs

Offline DoKGonZo

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Unmanned drone guns only fire at 3 second burst intervals
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2006, 10:56:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChopSaw
Please go back and read what you in fact did post on 3/18/2006 8:52 AM, third paragraph, last sentence which reads:  "Perk flights and watch these practices stop, and more logical plane choices start to be used."  You might be able to see how your intent could be mistaken.  ...


Only by someone who wished to deliverately distort my words.

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2006, 11:21:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
...

Bombers are given more opportunity to survive, and it is wrong.  Right now, Buff's can drop bombs from less than 500 feet and not have any effects of damage.   Buff's can sink a CV in this game.  I'm still trying to find ONE documented case of a Level Bomber "Sinking a CV".   I won't even mention the "Dive Bombing Lancs" used by some to pad their scores.  

...


Don't forget that they can be wheeled out at a base under attack and used as a flak-platform/ammo sponge.

If people want to do these kinds of things, fine, but they shouldn't get the benefit of two drones that were intended to allow the people who spend the time climbing to altitude to get some return on their time investment.

Offline ChopSaw

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« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2006, 03:27:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Hmm.  You had NO IDEA of JG26 using HO tactics.  That is just the tip O' the iceberg.  You are a "know-it-all" in a World of "well-read" people.  When you sit back and really pine over that, the light will be brighter.  

You had NO IDEA of the Ki67's of being the fastest Bomber (234 is common knowledge and RARELY used, but you tried to save face for your error, and it backfired).   I can catch anything in a Hurricane except jets.   You sir, are not in a fighter to even approach the subject, anytime you need a "lesson", PM me for a DA tutorial.  

You are pretending to have this wealth of knowledge of being in a bomber but also have an "uncanny ability to be accurate in off-angles, etc."  The former is said to make up for that fact that in reality, it is really the opposite.   I have YET to be shot down by anyone (999000, tater, etc who are BETTER than yourself) using any angle, or HO, in this game.   But you have the ability to "toot your own horn".

Bombers are given more opportunity to survive, and it is wrong.  Right now, Buff's can drop bombs from less than 500 feet and not have any effects of damage.   Buff's can sink a CV in this game.  I'm still trying to find ONE documented case of a Level Bomber "Sinking a CV".   I won't even mention the "Dive Bombing Lancs" used by some to pad their scores.  

When you wake up and realize you have ME NOTHING, it will also become clear.

As I informed you, we have been speaking of heavy bombers.  Look at the posts.  The Ki67 and other light bombers were not under discussion.  You might as well have been complaining about the speed of the Ar234, rather than the Ki67.  Unless I'm seriously mistaken, Krusty was complaining about B17's, B24's and Lancasters when he was complaining about bomber speed.  Why would he care about the little Ki67?  The Ar234 carries exactly twice the payload of the Ki67, is the third fastest aircraft in the game and under current conditions even it is hardly ever worth flying.  I made my initial comments with the full knowledge the discussion on the table regarded heavy bombers, not light bombers which owe more to fighter design than real bomber design.

If my knowledge of heavy bombers seems to you to be a "wealth", that's hardly my fault.  I've never pretended to be the "big expert" on anything in this game.  However when my experience in anything is at odds with someone else's I will comment on it.  In point of fact, I am experienced in bombers.  That means when you or anyone else says something that is at odds with that experience, I'm going to call it.

I specifically said I was not experienced in fighter aircraft.  That was rather my point.  There is nothing uncanny about my ability to shoot bombers down.  I've never implied there was.  What I have said is that if I, with my lack of fighter experience, can shoot bombers down without getting killed, then certainly those who have far more experience than I should have little difficulty.  My experience in bombers aids me a bit in knowing how to get away with shooting them down, but where I really learned how to do it was in one post.  The post was by Ack-Ack.  I felt it was worth reading for two reasons.  One, he is a good stick, a very good one.  Two, and more importantly for the purpose of this discussion, he used to shoot me down regularly in my bombers while denying me anything but the barest of gun solutions.  I tried to learn from that and as a result I have success in shooting bombers down without getting killed.  I also learned how to defend against the tactics a little and it makes me better in a bomber than I was.  Learning through ones own observations and the writings of others is an effective way to become better at the game.  Try it sometime.  Bye the way, I've read what you have to say on the subject of catching bombers with Hurricanes.  I used your statements as a counter to Krusty's complaint about bombers being too fast.  Apparently you can even catch Ki67's with it.  If you can do it with one of the slowest fighters in the game, others should have no problem doing it with the faster fighters.

You might note here that I'm not "tooting my own horn".  I'm quoting from posts of more experienced fighter pilots, including yours.  I'm also mentioning my own experiences in fighter vs bomber, but that is hardly tooting my own horn since I always mention my inexperience.

As to bombers dropping bombs at 500 feet with no ill effect, you might have something.  I assume you're saying the blast from the bombs should injure them.  If that is the "real world" situation, perhaps that should be changed in emulation.  Changed for all aircraft, including JABO fighters.

As for the rest of what you complain about here…..you're shouting into the wind.  The complaints you make regarding the game not being like real life don't make sense.  You may as well complain that aircraft, boats and gv's have an unrealistic, unlimited spawn ability.  It is a game.  It is never going to be like real life.

Offline ChopSaw

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« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2006, 03:33:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Only by someone who wished to deliverately distort my words.

Patently not true.  Your writing was unclear.  I continue to resent your allegation.

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2006, 05:07:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChopSaw
Patently not true.  Your writing was unclear.  I continue to resent your allegation.


How much freakin' clearer can "perk flights" be?

No one else seemed to be confused by my intent.

Besides, you've run this bit before.

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2006, 05:09:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChopSaw
As I informed you, we have been speaking of heavy bombers.  Look at the posts.  The Ki67 and other light bombers were not under discussion.   ...


ChopSaw has to be a troll.

Offline SuperDud

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« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2006, 05:30:08 PM »
See Rule #4, #5
« Last Edit: March 20, 2006, 10:14:57 AM by Skuzzy »
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