Author Topic: A question (Read 1582 times)

Toad · « **Reply #30 on:** October 17, 2001, 12:53:00 PM »

Nash, we've ploughed this ground before, you and I... but since you lead with it, I'll amuse you one more time. It's long, but please bear with me.

I had a friend in UPT that went out one day with his instructor and the first thing they did (which was normal in training) was simulate an engine failure on the T-38 right after Takeoff and re-enter the pattern doing a "single engine heavyweight landing."

My friend, who was one of the better (top 20%) students, flared high and brought the power back. The instructor jammed them both into burner... a split second to late. The airplane rolled over on its back and impacted. No survivors.

Once I got out to my unit, Uncle Sam became concerned that we poor copilots weren't getting enough stick time. (This was in the Carter years. 95% of all USAF co-pilots WEREN'T getting enough stick time. Fortunately, my unit, the RC-135 unit was flying max hours around the world and our tradition was the copilot flew every other sortie, start to finish including receiver air refuelings. We got LOTS of stick time.) Anyway, we got T-38's to fly again to "maintain our proficiency". One of my buddies, who had graduated Distinguished Graduate from the -135 copilot school at Castle took one out one day. Super stick. He flared a bit high on a runway that had a few BIG buildings on the windward side. He eased the power off, still high, as he went past the buildings. The wind changed significantly (sheared), he stalled and it rolled over. The guy in back shot out horizontally and lived. My buddy did not get out.

Now, what's the point? Well, little Georgie went thru UPT. He flew the T-38, just as my friends did. He went thru RTU in the F-102 as I recall... not a real easy airplane. He flew it around some. He did what they told him to do for a while. At some point, he left. No one seems to be able to find either an honorable... or a DISHONORABLE discharge. One or the other must be around somewhere.

Bottom line is little Georgie signed up. He took the risks inherent in learning to fly high performance aircraft. He then flew high performance aircraft.

Now did his daddy get him into a "good" Guard unit? Probably. Everyone who had any sense at that point (It was pretty clear LBJ wasn't trying to "win" the war.) was trying to do the same thing. (I didn't have much sense.

)

I'm certain old Senator Gore made sure his little bit of the future DNA mix into the human race also got non-combat duty in the action army. To his credit, little Al did go to Vietnam, even if it was to type. He served, that's what counts. So I have no problem with him either.

So, count me as one of the "vets" that isn't one tiny bit "appalled" at the present Commander in Chief's service.

easymo · « **Reply #31 on:** October 17, 2001, 01:32:00 PM »

I don't know what Gore did in "nam. But there was no safe place there. Our company cook won the silver star, and the bronze star with oak leaf cluster. Vietnam was not WW1. There were no front lines. So Gore is my brother. He just fell in with bad company.

Nash · « **Reply #32 on:** October 17, 2001, 05:33:00 PM »

Toad,

The first part of your post can be summed up by saying "The Guard wasn't exactly a nice place to serve - there were risks - so ya can't knock him for going there instead of serving in Vietnam". And I'm not knocking him for that. That's not my point. What I'm saying is what you and I both have come to learn and agree happened: that at some point... he... just...left.

You can continue to point to the fact that there (magically) exists no paper work regarding this, in terms of AWOL, Dishonorable Discharge or Honorable Discharge etc... there's no document saying exactly *why* he just stopped showing up. I'm sorry, but I find that perspective to be a bit naive. Bad records went away... what a shocker. So then, the only sort of "out" your looking at in terms of the choices here is that Bush was Honorably discharged, and that the paperwork just disappeared. Other than that you're left with AWOL or a Dishonorable Discharge, and the paperwork just disappeared. Or... there was no paperwork created to regarding his absence whatsoever. Which do you really think is a more likely scenario? Never mind, I know the answer. Everything's cool, he was honorably discharged and some clerk accidently took a Bic to his file.

Bush won't proffer any record of an Honorable Discharge (why not?), and he won't entertain any questions on the matter. His base commanders dunno what the hell happened other than the fact that he wasn't there.

Well, fine... continue to give him the benefit of the doubt. Ok sure, he was honorably discharged for some good reason (what?) and the file got lost. Bush won't comment on the matter for another good reason (what?). Whatever.

This is the kind of thing I was raising when I brought this example up. Easymo so quickly chastises Clinton's lack of a Vietnam record, yet he is either is unaware of Bush's own culpability or chooses to ignore it because that simply doesn't fit within his comfort zone.

If we go by your own example Toad, the entire Whitewater fiasco should be viewed by *everyone* here as nothing more than an egregious witch hunt. Why? Because, well, no record of any Clinton wrongdoing exists. Yet these things are still held against him... because many don't like the guy and in *this* particular case, a lack of evidence means nothing. Or it means something even more ominous. But at the end of the day, that just doesn't fit does it? Screw him, he was guilty.

Call me arrogant... I really don't care. I'm calling many of you hypocritical. Don't get me wrong... I still love you guys

but just as y'all wanna continue to plug away at the other side while completely ignoring your own party's skeletons... I have just as much right to call BS on it.

And how convenient... All this in a Dago thread. He was the guy who posted this wild story about how Clinton was cruising into the habours of Vietnam with the Vietnamese flying over the US's. What an uproar by folks here, what an outrage, and this just proves that Clinton is scum... etc. etc. I called BS on that. I asked Dago to respond. I then posted the news report showing that Clinton.... erhm... *flew* into Vietnam. Dago didn't respond, you guys didn't say a word and that thread dropped out of radar faster than my flaming Mossie.

Now here he is again with another gem. "Whaaa Clinton didn't bomb the toejam out of Afghanistan" or something. Huh? Like he could? Maybe Dago missed it, but does anyone else notice a change in the wind since the 11th that might make sending 4 aircraft carriers into that region a bit more palatable/justifiable? He concludes it with this:

"It is a strange turn of events. Hillary gets $8 Million for her forthcoming memoir. Bill gets about $12 Million for his memoir.
This from two people who have spent the past 8 years being unable to recall anything about past events! Incredible!!"

Like wtf? What the hell kinda argument is that? I don't understand the logic at play there at all. But here we go... "Amen! Burn the motherf*cking draft dodging scum".

Uhm.. yah.

easymo · « **Reply #33 on:** October 17, 2001, 05:49:00 PM »

"Amen! Burn the motherf*cking draft dodging scum".

Anyone got a match?

Nash · « **Reply #34 on:** October 17, 2001, 05:51:00 PM »

Right? What did I expect? And I'm arrogant for expecting nothing less.

Toad · « **Reply #35 on:** October 17, 2001, 05:54:00 PM »

No, that is an incorrect summation.

What I said is he did serve. Just like Gore.

Vietnam is immaterial to the submission of self to the authority of the Nation.

Guard or Active Duty is immaterial to the submission of self to the authority of the Nation also. Plenty of supposedly "safe" Guard units got the big suprise when they were called up.

Did I go to Vietnam? No. I was in AFROTC, went to UPT in '73, and made it to my unit in early '75 after RTU. The only guy in my UPT class that "made it" to Vietnam showed up at his C-130 squadron in Clark just in time to evacuate Saigon. They stuck him in the door with a flare gun and told him to shoot it if he saw a missile coming up. It was all over before they even checked him out as "combat ready" in the squadron. But he did step on Vietnamese soil and fly in their airspace.

So, did my group of 55 UPT graduates serve? Should we be looked down upon because we were still "safe" in college getting a required degree to enter UPT when the real action was going on?

Where do you draw the line?

Bush served. Gore served.

Bush's exit from the service appears to be undocumented as far as anyone has been able to determine. Highly unusual; there should be paperwork.

You choose to immediately assume "foul play" and that he deserted. You have no evidence.

May I paraphrase? "Because, well, no record of any Bush wrongdoing exists. Yet these things are still held against him... because many don't like the guy and in *this* particular case, a lack of evidence means nothing. Or it means something even more ominous. But at the end of the day, that just doesn't fit does it? Screw him, he was guilty." Looks like the door swings both ways.

I see no evidence either way... as yet. Therefore, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt... for now. Sort of an "innocent until proven guilty thing".

Whitewater? That's not really a blip on my personal radar screen vis-a-vis Clinton. There was certainly no submission of self to the authority of the Nation, however. That bothers me, I admit. The definition of "is" bothers me. There's a few other similar things that bother me... and there is evidence in those cases as well as these two.

Now, enough of ploughing old furrows. Back to the regularly scheduled slug-fest.

You may have the "last word".

easymo · « **Reply #36 on:** October 17, 2001, 05:54:00 PM »

I notice you are posting from Canada. WTF is up with that.

Nash · « **Reply #37 on:** October 17, 2001, 06:17:00 PM »

Easymo? WTF is up with what? Go ahead.

easymo · « **Reply #38 on:** October 17, 2001, 06:41:00 PM »

I have never met a single person that gave so much as a second thought to Canadian politics. Why would you care about ours?

[ 10-17-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]

Nash · « **Reply #39 on:** October 17, 2001, 06:42:00 PM »

Toad, again whether you realize it or not, you are refuting points that I'm not making.

Yeah, wow, the Guard was a squeak of a place. Yeah C130's and UPT and AFROTC and missiles inbound and whatever. Like I said 5 minutes ago, this aint what I was on about. To reiterate, I aint knockin' Guard duty whatsoever... Ok? (<cough> many would.... *I* am not.)

"Should we be looked down upon because we were still "safe" in college getting a required degree to enter UPT when the real action was going on?" - Toad

No. I hope that answers that.

More germane to my point: "What I said is he did serve. Just like Gore."

And what I'm saying too is that he served....errr... for a bit. Until perhaps a bout with ADD left him with the impulse to pick up and try something else for a while. I'm glad to hear you at least say that it is "highly unusual" that no paperwork exists for this <cough> absence.

Look at easymo here. He's fumbling around for a pack of matches yet he dismisses this entire episode out of hand. Doesn't respond in any meaningful way, doesn't refute, qualify, justify... nothing.... Just is content with "ah hell, that sonuhvasqueak". Right or wrong.... Doesn't matter in the least to him... He doesn't acknowledge its existance. It doesn't fit. It takes too much energy.

So excuse me if I descend from my lofty perch to tell him that he is full of toejam on this. I'm begging him to prove me wrong... but he won't. He doesn't *have* to. Spit out some comforting remark, and recieve the obligatory high fives and attaboys, and done like dinner.

*That* is all I was saying in bringing this up. And by no means has this got any bearing on anything... like these BBS discussions. What the f*ck do I want with facts for? Because *facts* aren't the point of AH's BBS political debate.

And Toad, you paraphrasing what I said by injecting Bush's name was *exactly* what I was demonstrating by writing that. It was the whole *point* of it. I thought it was obvious. Read it again. I was explicitly saying how easily it was to turn around the "missing documents" debate... And what do you do? You latch on to this to turn it around by dropping in Bush's name. Duh. I mean - that's what I was *saying* was going on here. So nothing new there except to underline this hypocrisy I guess.

Thanks for the last word

But come on, don't foist that upon me. That's too much responsibility... and we both know there aint never gonna be any last word...

Wait a sec... a golden opportunity here. Scratch the above. Thanks for the last word.

Might I conclude with:

Toad shags sheep, chickens, vegetables and small pieces of machinery. He likes to drink Old Milwaukee and has a tattoo on his arm that says "Mom". He had work done on that tattoo changing it to "Morine", the name of his second wife, who promptly left him after walking in on him during his attempted intercourse with a carrot grater.

[ 10-17-2001: Message edited by: Nash ]

Nash · « **Reply #40 on:** October 17, 2001, 06:47:00 PM »

"Wtf" becomes "why do you care"?

If I had any sense that you were truly curious about this I might be inclined to answer. I don't and I'm not.

Wobble · « **Reply #41 on:** October 17, 2001, 07:45:00 PM »

Quote

Toad shags sheep, chickens, vegetables and small pieces of machinery. He likes to drink Old Milwaukee and has a tattoo on his arm that says "Mom"

being a Texan, I must say I am offended.. Being a Texan guarentees me the right to be called such things, please do not wast good Texan insults on non-texans in the future...

thank you

easymo · « **Reply #42 on:** October 17, 2001, 07:55:00 PM »

Ya got me nash. I could not care less what any Canadian thinks of AMERICAN politics.

Toad · « **Reply #43 on:** October 17, 2001, 08:07:00 PM »

OK, so you don't get the last word. Guess I lied.

Point One: I do try to deal in "facts" in all these BBS debates. I almost always provide links to corroborating information as you may have noticed. I realize there are others... on both sides of the political "fence"... that do not.

Point Two: You seem to equate Clinton's documented non-service and documented ROTC-dodge to Bush's undocumented "early out". May I suggest there's quite a large difference there?

Point Three: Well, your "demonstration" wasn't clear to me. But then I flew all last night.

Lastly, my second wife's name was most certainly not Morine; that was the third wife.

Nash · « **Reply #44 on:** October 17, 2001, 09:25:00 PM »

re Point one: yeah, I know you do. You are not above the selective useage or interpretation of these facts, as not I nor anyone else is... but at least you do attempt to get that straight.

re Point two: Actually it was the equating of the lack of documents connecting the Clintons with any wrong doing in Whitewater and the lack of documents connecting Bush to any wrong doing wrt his service. With one it's heresy to folks here, with the other its probably just some administrative screw up.

but... re: point three: understood.

re easymo: Like I give a toss.