Author Topic: Anyone use Bose Acoustimass speakers?  (Read 1157 times)

Offline Skuzzy

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Anyone use Bose Acoustimass speakers?
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2006, 03:54:21 PM »
If I get to pick the amps, speakers, and material, it is a no-brainer.  Now I know diddly about car audio, other than it sucks, but I know home theatre well.

Again, if you ever get into town, give me a call.  I bet I can surprise you (unless you are just flat out deaf).  :)
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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Offline Furball

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Anyone use Bose Acoustimass speakers?
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2006, 03:56:04 PM »
skuzzy has to have a very loud system because all of the soundwaves get absorbed by the beard otherwise.

its like a black hole for soundwaves, food and small animals.
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Anyone use Bose Acoustimass speakers?
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2006, 04:55:19 PM »
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I do agree that speaker differences become marginal as you go up. There's a limit to how flat it can be, and if you are already +-2db 20-20K, then there's not really much room for improvement no matter how perfect the alternative.


Well that's the whole point. It's extremely easy to build a speaker that performs flatly from 20hz - 20khz in an anechoid chamber. In a room its sound will get distorted no matter how much you EQ it. The problems will be all the more apparent if directivity hasn't accounted for in design (which will lead into problems in power response).

Only highly directive speakers have a room response similar to the response in anechoid chamber. And even that is true only in nearfield where reflections will stay out of the envelope. And this is the big deal.

If you haven't heard Martin Logan or Magnepan for example, do yourself a favour and arrange a listening session. If it's not an eye opener for you, you probably won't need anything better than a boxed speaker anyway. ;)

Quote
Incidentally...if you are planning on building speakers soon, you should check out some of the stuff available in the car audio DIY market. Some of it is really very good, and relatively inexpensive. The Koda 6 driver from adireaudio.com is extremely smooth, and the 9kv2 from edesignaudio.com is an excellent 8" driver with a ton of xmax for an 8. For tweeters...I love my Raven ribbons.


There are dozens of labels offering true hi-fi quality parts. Labels that the speaker manufacturers use. Scan-Speak, Seas, Vifa, Peerless, Focal and Visaton to name a few. They all offer extremely high quality parts which make car audio products look like the toys they are.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 05:01:45 PM by MrRiplEy[H] »
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Offline Masherbrum

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Anyone use Bose Acoustimass speakers?
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2006, 05:26:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seraphim
See!! I told ya...Not many people can actually HEAR what frequencies are missing (blhablah), it's just written on paper. What matters it how it SOUNDS. Sorry to all you speaker salesmen, but my ears have made lots of money & Ive also done sound engineering, even when i was a kid i experimented with sound reflection (without knowing about bose), and it is not just marketing. When you close your eyes and listen naturally you'll hear the difference.

Red Flag I bought on ebay, but it's found on any dvd sales place. The actual title is "Fighter Pilot: Operation Red Flag" , and was first released on IMAX. Here's a link from History channel: Red Flag


I know my hobby.   If Sound Engieering was your "job", you should know that a Flat Response is the goal of any Home Theater/Stereo System.   You WILL NEVER get it with Bose.  

Furthermore, the Equalizer is 99% of the time, used INCORRECTLY.  I;m sure everyone that will respond to this statement "uses it correctly".

Bass Module: The Bose Acoustimass subwoofer, or "Bass Module" as they'd like to call it, consists of three 5.5-inch drivers in a seventh-order band pass configuration. The three-chamber band pass design is the worst of all major subwoofer enclosure types. Its only purpose is to boost decibel output at the expense of accuracy. It does this by burying all woofers within the cabinet in three separate chambers, and using them to drive air out of its port(s). First of all, 5.5-inch drivers are not intended to be used as bass drivers; they are clearly midrange drivers. In fact, Bose doesn't even claim that its "Bass Module" is in fact a subwoofer because they can't! True subwoofers start at 8 inches and taper off at 15 inches in diameter (sometimes you will find 6-inch subwoofers in multimedia computer systems and novelty 18-inch subwoofers, but those are largely non-conventional designs that do not have any advantage over others.). Chosen woofer size largely depends on the application, be it music playback and type of music or movies, SPL or accuracy, and other factors such as room dimensions. Smaller subwoofers move faster and thus have tighter bass response for improved clarity and accuracy, but larger subwoofers can reproduce lower frequencies and at louder volumes. Build quality, crossovers, amps, and driver design can magnify or nullify these traits. At a glance, you can tell the 5.5-inch Bose woofers are poorly crafted, from the questionable cone material to the frail spiders, coupled with cheap crossovers located near the amplifier section (harmonic distortion anyone?). And with this already low integrity build, Bose takes these drivers and uses them as a subwoofer unit! This contrived effort quickly reveals its weaknesses in a computer frequency sweep test.

The Cubes:  The Bose Acoustimass system implements five dual-cubed, 2.5-inch, paper-cone satellite speakers. Incidentally, you can buy these exact same drivers for $35 a pair here. The material that is used to build these speakers may seem adequate to the unassuming novice; However, upon closer inspection, it is clear that they are built with little regard for performance. To start off, the cubed satellites are made of what Bose once claimed to be "revolutionary new space-aged paper", when in fact my own observations lead me to believe that they are nothing more than dyed Manila hemp. Paper grade is besides the point here, as any type of large paper driver has poor resonant properties in upper octave frequencies (2 KHz to 20+ KHz). When designing satellite speakers where size is the primary consideration, a conventional dome tweeter is ideal. In a cube speaker the size of the Acoustimass, a dome tweeter would perform much better than a cone tweeter. However, Bose disregards this fact because making paper cone tweeters is a much cheaper manufacturing process. You find this practice abundant in $200 Aiwa boom boxes and mini-systems.

There is also something to be said about the diameter of the drivers. The 2.5-inch paper cone Bose uses falls into the range where conventional tweeter and midrange drivers perform weakest. This incongruous selection of dual 2.5-inch drivers is plagued with substantial shortcomings in the high and mid-frequency range. Remember that sound is merely the rapid movement of air so there are very specific driver sizes that correspond to acoustic properties which allow for the magnet-coil structure to drive the speaker at its targeted frequency band with greater ease.

Frequency Response

SATELLITES                            
280 Hz to 13.3k Hz at ±10.5 dB

BASS MODULE
46Hz to 202Hz at ±2.3 dB

A gap THIS LARGE will be noticable to any person.  

Final Comments:  This six-speaker unit costs $1299.99 USD MSRP. From dissecting it, it costs $100, no more than $150 tops, to assemble. It performs similarly to a $500 Optimus-Radio Shack surround sound system and is very easily outperformed by a $350 Cambridge Soundworks system. For $1300, there are at least three dozen other configurations from companies such as KEF, PSB, NHT, Mission, Tannoy, Diva, Polk, B&W, Energy, Paradigm, M&K, Infinity, Mirage, Monitor, Jamo, Axiom, nOrh, Anthony Gallo, Dahlquist, Sound Dynamics, Acoustic Research, Phase Technology, Definitive Technology, Wharfdale, Boston Acoustics, and Klipsch that easily outperform all Bose speakers from the 151s to the 901s.

Again, I KNOW my hobby.  Please, cease and desist.

Karaya
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
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Offline Masherbrum

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Anyone use Bose Acoustimass speakers?
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2006, 05:38:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by phookat
Curval-- Horns are the plastic things sometimes on speakers that look like air intakes.  Ports also can look like this, but horns are often at the top of speakers and centered.  Anyway, I think they sound bad.

MrRipley-- I know you can only change direct radiation with an EQ, but I maintain that changing the direct radiation has an impact on overall sound.  Using a parametric EQ it is definitely possible to eliminate painful resonances and solve other similar problems caused by room structure or speaker non-flatness.  Again it is not the perfect solution...but in a HT environment where you *cannot* rely on direct sound only, this is a better solution than electrostats.  You've heard stats off-axis, and I'm sure you'll agree they sound pretty muffled.

Skuzzy-- Below clipping and operating within their design parameters, all amps are gonna sound about the same.  I'll have to agree with MrRipley on this one.  If you can actually hear amp differences under those conditions, there's a guy in North Carolina that will give you $10,000 to prove it in a double-blind level-matched test.  No kidding.  Now, of course, some amps are more powerful than others and they'll get louder, and that part is important.  But other than that, speakers are electromechanical, and they are going to have a bigger effect.  The room may have an even bigger effect than the speakers.


I'll double his bet.  I'll make it simple.  I have KEF Q1's.  Put a Denon receiver and a Yamaha receiver to them, I'll tell which is which.  Let him know, I'll drive my 2004 Explorer down to North Carolina and turn the payments over to him when "I lose".   If amps DIDN'T have tonal separation or tonal differences, there would be NO NEED to have 300+ amplifier companies manufacturing them.  

As for Horns, when done right, they sound great.  If you think by going to Best Buy and listening to the Klipsch Synergy series you'll be floored, youve got another thing coming.  They ARE the best speakers that they sell though.  Here:

Horns sound great in corners because the have a carefully controlled dispersion pattern. The output from the Klipschorn mid and tweeter horns do not reflect off the side walls as they have a dispersion angle of about 85 degrees. Another reason horns kick butt.   However, place them in the wrong areas, they sound fer chit.
 
Regular diaphram speakers have dispersion angles of 180 to 360 degrees (depending on the width of the baffle) and will reflect off any side wall or ceiling or floor near them. You need to avoid this by placing the speakers away from the reflective walls.

Klipsch:  The Klipschorn has a large folded bass cabinet that makes it so spectacular, but the same midrange and tweeter are used in the La Scala and Belle. The Belle has a 15" woofer is smaller horn than the Klipschorn and the La Scala has a 12" woofer in an even smaller horn. For the best bass performance other than the Klipschorn, the Belle is the best choice. The La Scala is a smallest of the all horn loaded speakers Klipsch sells.

Again, I know my hobby.  I'm not a "sound engineer" nor will I ever be.  I'm quite simply well-versed in Home Theater.  

Karaya
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Skuzzy

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Anyone use Bose Acoustimass speakers?
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2006, 05:42:41 PM »
Geez Karaya, hehe,..Denon against Yamaha.  I wasn't even thinking in terms that wide.  I assume you are talking about the high end Yamaha, not the under $800 stuff they have.

Of course, you could go either way.  High end Denon, versus low end Yamaha would be easy too.
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Offline Masherbrum

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Anyone use Bose Acoustimass speakers?
« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2006, 05:48:00 PM »
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Originally posted by Seraphim
From my experience, it's the reflections which can define a sound. Anywhere you go, any natural sound reflects off of something.
Ive been using speakers & EQ's since my early teens, and was able to get even a crappy speaker to at least sound decent. Ive also never heard any system with no tone control sound good, unless it was in a milion dollar sound proof studio. Since noone (at least noone I know) can afford that, EQ's help shape the sound to what it supposed to sound like (like skuzzy mentioned). Every single studio Ive been in, seen, or heard of uses EQ's, even if it's just slight, for main recording & mastering, to get the sounds to mix well together, instead of just throwin them together and makin mud.
Using Bose's speakers helps spread the sound to sound more natural for several people in a room to enjoy, unlike directional speakers where you have to sit right in front of them and not move to get a good sound.


With my KEF Uni-Q drivers I can move around the entire room and not "hear exactly which speaker the sound is coming from".  

EQ's are a Home Theaters worst nightmare.   A more EFFECTIVE but less used skill, is Acoustic Treatments.   Heck, a 3x2 panel placed properly can flatten the response totally.  I know many people who went the "EQ" route and went the Acoustical treatment route, and wonder why they even bothered with the EQ.  EQ's are a double edged sword, with EVERY GAIN, there is a DRAWBACK.   BTW, you cannot compare a Recording Studios EQ usage to "Home Theater EQ usage".  Two whole, entirely different Sonic Realms.  

Problem with Bose is, they focus on "Reflected Sound" rather than "Direct Sound".   It's a Marketing Shell Game.  Nothing more, nothing less.  BTW, those Bose Headphones will not be on the market much longer, AKG, Shure, Sennheiser and Grado have already kicked them in the nuts, and proved those headphones being overpriced.

Karaya
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http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Masherbrum

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Anyone use Bose Acoustimass speakers?
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2006, 05:49:52 PM »
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Geez Karaya, hehe,..Denon against Yamaha.  I wasn't even thinking in terms that wide.  I assume you are talking about the high end Yamaha, not the under $800 stuff they have.

Of course, you could go either way.  High end Denon, versus low end Yamaha would be easy too.


Put it to you simply Skuzz, The Denon through my Q1's (will be moved to the rears on stands when we move) sound like a telephone receiver.  The Yamaha has a VERY NOTICABLE headroom increase.  

Finally, when I get down there, I'm inviting myself to your crib and bringing some music.  The PD couldn't keep me out.  :)

Karaya
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http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Skuzzy

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Anyone use Bose Acoustimass speakers?
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2006, 05:53:08 PM »
You are more than welcome to come over (you already know what it sounds like, don't ya? :)).  I'll take you to my 'toy' shop which has an incredible array of high end gear and a real audio/video room to play around in.
Heck, bring a DVD.  I got a nice 60" Sony SXRD to play with as well.  Just let me know when.  We are remodeling parts of the house right now.

Yep, Yamaha definately kicks Denon in the privates.  The highs are just sooooo right with the Yamaha and the mids are clean.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 05:56:16 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline xrtoronto

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Anyone use Bose Acoustimass speakers?
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2006, 06:08:45 PM »
How does McIntosh equipment compare to the Martin Logan and other stuff in your opinion(s)? I'm a long time owner and fan of McIntosh line.

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Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2006, 06:13:57 PM »
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
How does McIntosh equipment compare to the Martin Logan and other stuff in your opinion(s)? I'm a long time owner and fan of McIntosh line.

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McIntosh ranges from $3,000-$10,000 USD.  it is a VERY RESPECTABLE brand.  No negatives about em.  You have Logan's?    

I do not have my price guide in my bookbag (at work, supposed to be working), but I want to say that the MC602 is around $4,000.

Karaya
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Offline phookat

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Anyone use Bose Acoustimass speakers?
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2006, 06:34:11 PM »
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Only highly directive speakers have a room response similar to the response in anechoid chamber. And even that is true only in nearfield where reflections will stay out of the envelope. And this is the big deal.

If you haven't heard Martin Logan or Magnepan for example, do yourself a favour and arrange a listening session. If it's not an eye opener for you, you probably won't need anything better than a boxed speaker anyway. ;)


Yes, I have heard the Logans.  Had a friend who owned a pair of ML Arius speakers.  And they sound great, as I mentioned before.  But only in one place. ;)  As I have been saying, this is not the ideal solution for a HT application where you have people in different locations.

 
Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
There are dozens of labels offering true hi-fi quality parts. Labels that the speaker manufacturers use. Scan-Speak, Seas, Vifa, Peerless, Focal and Visaton to name a few. They all offer extremely high quality parts which make car audio products look like the toys they are.


I've used most of those brands in my DIY projects.  Yes, they are good...but I maintain that there is some car audio gear out there that is actually better than those drivers in certain applications.  For example, the Adire Koda has an extremely smooth roll-off, with unusually low breakup.  Another example, JL and Adire subs have extremely linear motors with tons of excursion.  Raven ribbons aren't car equipment, but they're some of the best tweeters I've heard.

I'm not talking about stuff you get at Best Buy in the "boom box car audio section".

Offline xrtoronto

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« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2006, 06:51:12 PM »
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
McIntosh ranges from $3,000-$10,000 USD.  it is a VERY RESPECTABLE brand.  No negatives about em.  You have Logan's?    

I do not have my price guide in my bookbag (at work, supposed to be working), but I want to say that the MC602 is around $4,000.

Karaya


No...I don't have Logans...next time I'm uptown I'll make a point of stopping in for a demo

If they have them I'd love to hear a demo of the XRT30 speaker system from McIntosh ($30K) I've heard other less expensive Mac speakers over the years and this brand never fails to impress as it gets louder and louder Have you heard them?

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2006, 07:03:45 PM »
Yes, they are capable, but if you shelling out that much coin.  You can do better, IMO.   Dynaudio, B&W, and KEF Reference have them bettered and are all cheaper.    I myself have the KEF Q series of speakers, and find the Reference line overpriced.  

Personally, I'm old fashioned.  I prefer the "British sound".  Which is why I settled on the KEF brand.  If my wife wasn't such a pistol, I'd push for the B&W Nautilus 805's (bookshelf speaker) for all 5 channels.  I would then mate it with an SVS subwoofer.   I'm a follower of late Henry Kloss that "Bookshelves are the best example of a natural sounding speaker.  The more crossovers you place between the signal and the ear, the worse is sounds."  

Another side note.  If you ever have that much to spend.  Just make sure you a worthy room to put it in.  Acoustic treatments will ALWAYS be needed.   You do not need an EQ.   Unless you know what you are doing, you will make the signal more harsh.  The room is a big factor.  Say you have a rectangular room (12' X 20').   Some product will perform better in the "short dimension" (speakers closer) and vice versa.

Any forum member is more than welcome to PM with questions.  

Karaya

PS - I'll be in Toronto from April 8-9th (seeing David Gilmour on the 9th at Massey Hall).
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Offline phookat

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« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2006, 07:40:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
I'll double his bet.  I'll make it simple.  I have KEF Q1's.  Put a Denon receiver and a Yamaha receiver to them, I'll tell which is which.  Let him know, I'll drive my 2004 Explorer down to North Carolina and turn the payments over to him when "I lose".   If amps DIDN'T have tonal separation or tonal differences, there would be NO NEED to have 300+ amplifier companies manufacturing them.


Hey Masherbrum...  I'm tellin ya, head out to the carsound.com forums and look up this Richard Clark guy.  It's much better than a bet, actually...if you lose, you only lose the trip fare + $100.  If you win, you get $10,000.  He doesn't charge when he sets up a booth at a conference, but he started charging $100 for individual challenge applicants because so many people started trying it individually and failing, and it was costing him a lot of time to keep setting it up and making arrangements.  You can give it a try, but I'll give you the same warning as I gave Skuzzy. ;)

Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
As for Horns, when done right, they sound great.  If you think by going to Best Buy and listening to the Klipsch Synergy series you'll be floored, youve got another thing coming.  They ARE the best speakers that they sell though.  


Perhaps so, but I've never heard a good horn.  Stats and ribbons are the way to go on the high end IMO...unless you've got a PA application where pure SPL is more important than quality.  I've auditioned Klipsch in hi-end stores, and was not impressed (compared to the likes of Logan stats).  I think the problem is the inherent distortion of compression drivers.