Author Topic: Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?  (Read 18599 times)

Offline Angus

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #150 on: March 26, 2006, 03:28:56 AM »
Jackal1:
I am well in on the farming issue. I have an acricultural education you see.
Oh, and I run a farm, as well as I've been working for others in my country and abroad. And that, my friend, is a valuable asset when it comes to detecting total rubbish about agriculture.
You don't accept my point and I don't accept yours. Mine being basically that there is global warming and there is something mankind CAN do about it, yours basically being that there isn't. Well, I'm telling you that you're wrong, and defending the same issue that the USA is now defending against Europe for instance.
And I think your logic is going in circles.  Machinery for instance drastically increases the output of land, while not being necessary at all to sustain civilization. Shipping stuff all over the world is not always necessary. A "rotting" forest or vegetation does NOT require any energy. Aquaducts were built long before there was fuel propelled machinery, and apart from that, you don't have to build them every year. (What are the Egyptians doing now?)
It all boils down to one thing though, and that's where the comfy consumer gets a hicup:
There is a prize on decreasing CO2 emission. It's money. Products will become more expensive and it's going to hit everybody's purse.
Want me to explain why?

And TalonX:
"Nothing we do is going to stop the natural thermal cycles. Don't get crazy"

It's not a "Natural" Thermal cycle. There were many big natural cycles before, and will be, but this one isn't.

John:
"burning fuel does not cause global warming"

Dead wrong.

And a bone for you:
The CO2 emission from forest destruction in the Amazone area counts somewhere from 20-65% of the CO2 emission from the global fuel usage.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #151 on: March 26, 2006, 03:39:30 AM »
Global Warming is bullcaca. Well anyway, a volcano spews out more "pollution" then we do.

I was listening to that commie Air Soviet(America)radio  today, and this chick said she dreaded the
 day, a giant merchant ship full of goods would sink as that would cause the end of the world.
Bis endlich der Fiend am Boden liegt.
Bis Bishland bis Bishland bis Bishland wird besiegt!

Offline Angus

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« Reply #152 on: March 26, 2006, 04:19:03 AM »
Volcanoes spew out ash, not greenhouse-effect related gases.
It causes cooling, not warming, and only temporarily (untill it settles)
A slight cooling in the European climate in ca 1785 - 1789 has been linked with a 3-year eruption in Iceland (1783-1786). That was the biggest volcanic eruption on the planet since civilization.
So, this post of yers is a "bullcaca"
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #153 on: March 26, 2006, 05:02:34 AM »
If we quote Boroda the world can actually be saved by detonating a few dozen nukes in the deserts, enough to block some of the sunlight.

Afterall, radiation is not harmful and nobody has ever died from it. Especially russian radiation. :rofl
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #154 on: March 26, 2006, 05:11:35 AM »
It may well be true that the earth's climate undergoes cyclic changes, but this in no way nullifies the evidence available that man made global warming is also taking place, and at a faily prodigious rate. Some people in this thread are using the natural cyclic changes to mask the effect of what we are doing to this planet ourselves. As Angus as pointed out, the arctic ice is melting - and melting at a faster rate than had been predicted.

Even though cyclic changes may exist, the amount of greenhouse gas being released into the earth's atmosphere is each year is, at 6 billion tonnes, infinitely higher in the last 250 years than at any other period in the earth's history.

Some people might find these figures to be unbelievable. Indeed, when I first posted on this topic some months ago, one board poster refuted the figures thus:
Quote
So, at best its a guess from a bunch of left wing tree hugging man hating whale humping lesbians with an agenda.
and
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Given those figures are guesses by hippies based on energy use I think you're screwed in this thread.
However, I can confirm that the figures are from  the Energy Information Administration - the official energy statistics from the US Government.  
Source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/ggccebro/chapter1.html
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 05:15:04 AM by beet1e »

Offline Angus

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« Reply #155 on: March 26, 2006, 05:39:54 AM »
Good point!
This matter stands close to me, for I live in a country where the warming is very evident. Our Country is also rich of volcanoes (I can see a couple out my kitchen window), so that effect is well known to us.
Actually, today, we have an EVACUATION excercize, and I just nailed an orange sign with the text "HOUSE EVACUATED" on the front!
Our metreologists have been proving right, and so have our geologists.
We are now waiting for a Volcanic eruption, which is overdue.
Same is with earthquake activity, we get those every now and then, and our guys are getting better evrey year predicting them.
The last big one was in 2000, the guys predicted another one within a week, it was 4 days!
The declination of the ozon layer was predicted, debated, and then established as a fact. Now, measures are being taken.
Same goes with the man-made global warming. It was debated, then warming was established as a fact, and measures are being taken in many countries to reduce it, - just not enough.
But dangit, I won't be able to stop that volcano from popping :(
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #156 on: March 26, 2006, 06:01:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Jackal1:
I am well in on the farming issue. I have an acricultural education you see.
Oh, and I run a farm, as well as I've been working for others in my country and abroad. And that, my friend, is a valuable asset when it comes to detecting total rubbish about agriculture.
 


Great and so do I. I was born raised and worked on the farm for many, many years. I have also owned and ran a custom farming business on two different occasions.

Quote
Mine being basically that there is global warming and there is something mankind CAN do about it, yours basically being that there isn't.


What I have said here is global warming is a theory. There is just as many saying the global warming theory is a load of horse crap.(You being a farmer will understand that. :)) That`s theory as well.
If global warming exists and CO2 and pollutant emmisions is proven to be the cause , then I totaly agree there is something mankind can do to reduce it. You wouldn`t like the ideas and neither would anyone else. What I`m telling you is , it is a fairy tale that will never happen. Mankind will not willing give up the comforts.
I am also telling you that in most cases when mankind has came up with solutions to theoretical problems, we have smooched the pooch on the majority of them and made things worse than originaly were in the geginning. That clear enough for you?

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Machinery for instance drastically increases the output of land, while not being necessary at all to sustain civilization. S


Yes it drasticaly increases output......at a very high cost. No, it`s not necessary to sustain a civilization, just the one we are accustom to . :)
The point is , to attain the amount of vegatation/forest on a scale you are speaking of, to the point of having any impact whatsoever, production of machinery would have to be increased 10 fold and over at least. Then there is the question of where are we going to do all this MASS planting.
BTW , where are you putting your 20 or 30,000 acre forest?
Also, what are you doing personaly ?

Quote
Aquaducts were built long before there was fuel propelled machinery, and apart from that, you don't have to build them every year.


True that. The initial projects would increase enough more percentage of CO2 over the current rate of output to set you back a couple hundred years because we are talking masive in order to have any significant bearing on anything.

Quote
(What are the Egyptians doing now?)


When you round up a few hundred thousand ancient Eygptians that are willing to die like flys to do such mass manual labor, get back to me. We will put them right on it. :)

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A "rotting" forest or vegetation does NOT require any energy./QUOTE]

BS. Without energy , the forest will not rot. The forest would not exist to begin with. Every living organism or organisms require energy to even exist.
I think you missed the point here again. What a rotting forest produces, once again, is not only beneficial fertilizer, but also produces what? CO2.

Quote
It all boils down to one thing though, and that's where the comfy consumer gets a hicup:


Yep, that`s what I am saying. Not only that, but in order to have any significant input whatsoever, it would hit hard too.
All the "what ifs" and fairy tale scenarios look goood on paper while we are sipping coffee or refrigerated drinks, but that certainly doesn`t mean it will actualy happen.
We could eliminate lots of todays current problems if we were willing to go back to more simple ways. Eliminate autos all together. Ride horses. Eliminate 90% of factories and industrilization. (About 85% of that only produces useless junk to begin with) Raise our own food organicaly, etc.
Of course we would have to get a few million volunteers to commit suicide in order for this to work. All of which would be fine with me as long as I`m not on the list. :)
We would also have to make sure this was a worldwide project in order for it to work. I don`t speak Russian for example. :)
Fairy tales and "what ifs."
As it stands now, world leaders cannot agree on the size and shape of a meeting table. I don`t see any change in this in the future.They are certainly not going to EVER be able to agree with anything on such a grand scale as what it would take to reduce CO2 emissions to any degree that it would have an even microscopic impact Fairy tales...nice on paper, but just that.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 06:07:51 AM by Jackal1 »
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Rolex

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #157 on: March 26, 2006, 08:36:21 AM »
Saying that we need to start a grassroots effort to start action within 10 years is hardly panic. Panic would likely be what the younger generation feels in about 25 years if we do nothing for the next 10 years. I would like us to avoid that panic by doing more now, since it's always cheaper now than later.

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Insert tacky reminder and lesson about panic and rising water: The scientists and engineers said the levees around New Orleans needed to be rebuilt because of the risks of a large hurricane. The others said, "Ohh Chicken Littles - the sky isn't falling! Don't worry about it, don't panic. It's highly unlikely a major hurricane will hit. We can use the money for other things. We're all going to die anyway!"

The cost of rebuilding, lost earnings, health and social costs, grants, insurance, etc. will dwarf the amount it would have cost to rebuild the levees years ago. And the levees still need to be rebuilt...

The scientists were right. The living have to pay the price for not "dying anyway."
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I started on this journey of reading about 6 months ago (and I need a new pair of reading glasses from it) because I was looking to compare some of the methodology to economic models of risk, and particularly the measure of risk, since the parameters are less than galactic, but wider than economics. Cyclical and technical, or push factors, are present in both, and both follow the general principle that history is not a precurser to the future since the conditions are never the same.

And, it's a field undiluted by politics, agendas and special interests, like economics... ;)

I would very much like to read more peer-reviewed, recently-published papers by credentialed scientists that counter the theory that our CO2 emissions and greenhouse gases will not contribute significantly to the increase in global mean suface temperature with data and a methodology.

The problem is that I can't find them. As a matter of fact, they have melted away to a trickle.

So how do we define concensus? There are a few thousand peer-reviewed papers published in the last few years saying 'yes,' and about a dozen published in the same time saying 'no.' The 'no' guys have no data or experiments, so they are relegated to adding anomolies to projections to derive a 'no' conclusion.

Fred Singer is the 'no' guy most quoted, but he isn't writing peer-reviewed papers. Half of the organizations he's part of are funded directly by ExxonMobile, and the others are spinoffs supported by the same money. Most of the old scientist skeptics retired, died, stop writing about it or changed their minds. The few new guys are looking to cash in on ExxonMobile's largess to anyone willing to say 'no' publically. Most of the takers are retired and don't need to look colleagues in the eye anymore on a daily basis, and they are not writing peer-reviewed papers with data to support their position.

The papers written 15 years ago that are still being trotted out were written before the new modeling and before the biggest push factor - the massive impact China is having on driving up emissions and overall resources consumption.

It's interesting to note that the same non-scientists who argued that there was no concensus, hence no scientific validity, changed their argument when the concensus became overwhelming. It changed to the argument that concensus has no place in science, hence there was no scientific validity.

There is no less concensus among credentialed scientists than there is concensus that smoking is deleterious to your health.

It's reminiscent of the argument used by the tobacco industry - no concensus of medical evidence. The industry did the same thing the oil industry is doing now:



Create the illusion that there is no concensus with false 'scientists' supporting their position for cash. By the way, that filter was made from asbestos and decimated the workers that made the filter with asbestosis.

The only argument remaining is: we don't want to change our lifestyle.

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In a nutshell, we're getting compound interest (temperature increase) from our CO2 emissions, not simple interest that we projected 18 and 10 years ago.
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The global economy has gone through a remarkably extended period of growth and good fortune and we should be investing now toward changing our energy infrastucture, not waiting until the wolf is at the door 25 years from now. A policy centered on burning through all the fossil fuel we can get our hands on until it runs out is foolhardy. Foolhardy for the environment and for global economic stability.

Now is the time to start rebuilding the nuclear industry. The environmental groups who oppose it are foolhardy also. If we don't start a massive program this decade, we may not have the resources to do it later. Industry and much transportation must move to non-fossil fuel electricity. The western economies are going to be under great stress 4-5 years from now when baby-boomer retirements begin to throttle down consumer spending.

Creating a race to the finish for fossil fuel is a race that no one wins. Investing in a new industry (it will be like a new industry for many countries, US included) creates jobs and growth. In 25 years, China alone could have a demand for oil that exceeds the total world supply. The world will not be able to pressure or hold China and India responsible in the future, if the rest of the world has not already started changing the infrastructure. The "Dr. Strangelove" method is not an elegant solution.

It's kind of a classic fable, isn't it? Spreading western selfish consumption with no regard for the next generation throughout the world as a 'way of life' will hasten the degradation of the western way of life for the young generation of westerners.

Reducing CO2 by changing our infrastructure has no negative risks to the health of any species (including us), environment or ecosystem. The argument that it will hurt the economy should be more honestly stated. It's like a disease or infection - the longer you wait to treat it, the greater the risk it will do more damage to you.

Anosognosia is not a treatment.

Offline Thrawn

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #158 on: March 26, 2006, 08:57:21 AM »
As I am sure some people on this BBS are aware, I used to be a very vocal proponent of man-made global warming.

Then I started seeing data like this...




Although I still believe we could help allievate the problem, I'm not sure that it's worth the it until we know what component of global warming is man-made and how much is increase solar output.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #159 on: March 26, 2006, 09:16:34 AM »
this is really funny... so if we don't believe chicken little even tho he has no evidence and can't tell us a thing...

We are "having a shotgun pointed at our head"  and wondering if it is loaded or not?   LOL... or even more amusing... we are smokers and believing the darth vader of business... the tobaco co.  (can we even mention them in here?)

No evidence... all doom and gloom... no aknowledgeing all the new tech that is waiting to be used...

Worse.... those screaming the loadest.... are only worried about the other guys habits.... when it comes to travel.... well so what if tourism is probly way bigger a polluter.... I mean... it is worth it if they see "things of historical significance"  LOL  the hypocracy of these limmosine liberals...

We have no idea if we are contributing or not or even how much... we do know that if we lived like quakers.... the amount of greenhouse gasses we prevented would all be undone by one good volcano errupting...  

chicken littles...you all look like fools to me and far from me feeling that global warming has a shotgun to my head...

I feel it is you and your expansion of government by junk science (WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING NOW!!!!!)  That is the biggest threat we have ever faced.

I can forsee no problem that will not either fix itself or that the free market will not fix other than natural disasters like comets, or volcanos or poles swapping ends or aliens firing a planet killer at us...

You guys are silly and naive and playing right into the hands of nanny who will damn sure figure out a way to make you pay for the guilt you are heaping upon yourself.

lazs

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #160 on: March 26, 2006, 09:29:03 AM »
Well Lazs, I don`t know man.
I`m going to put up a website asking for ancient Eygptians willing to volunteer for slave labor.  The death to survial ratio will sort of have to be whitwashed, but what the H. I`ll get back with the outcome. :)
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Offline lazs2

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #161 on: March 26, 2006, 09:40:40 AM »
I got no problem with the whole thing in any event... if a couple billion people starve to death then that is a solution in itself...

surely the ones left will be to busy to bother me with their drivel.

have you noticed how.... ah... Gleeful the doom and gloomers seem to be?  They are so pleased to be amung the anointed few who have had their eyes opened and are chomping at the bit to be able to tell everyone what to do and met out the punishment...

let the inquisition begin!

lazs
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 09:43:42 AM by lazs2 »

Offline Rolex

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« Reply #162 on: March 26, 2006, 09:52:52 AM »
Here... I know you don't like to read lazs, but I just saw this go online after I posted:

Time cover story:

"Environmentalists and lawmakers spent years shouting at one another about whether the grim forecasts were true, but in the past five years or so, the serious debate has quietly ended. Global warming, even most skeptics have concluded, is the real deal, and human activity has been causing it. If there was any consolation, it was that the glacial pace of nature would give us decades or even centuries to sort out the problem.

But glaciers, it turns out, can move with surprising speed, and so can nature. What few people reckoned on was that global climate systems are booby-trapped with tipping points and feedback loops, thresholds past which the slow creep of environmental decay gives way to sudden and self-perpetuating collapse. Pump enough CO2 into the sky, and that last part per million of greenhouse gas behaves like the 212th degree Fahrenheit that turns a pot of hot water into a plume of billowing steam. Melt enough Greenland ice, and you reach the point at which you're not simply dripping meltwater into the sea but dumping whole glaciers. By one recent measure, several Greenland ice sheets have doubled their rate of slide, and just last week the journal Science published a study suggesting that by the end of the century, the world could be locked in to an eventual rise in sea levels of as much as 20 ft. Nature, it seems, has finally got a bellyful of us."

"Things are happening a lot faster than anyone predicted," says Bill Chameides, chief scientist for the advocacy group Environmental Defense and a former professor of atmospheric chemistry. "The last 12 months have been alarming." Adds Ruth Curry of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Massachusetts: "The ripple through the scientific community is palpable."

And it's not just scientists who are taking notice. Even as nature crosses its tipping points, the public seems to have reached its own. For years, popular skepticism about climatological science stood in the way of addressing the problem, but the naysayers—many of whom were on the payroll of energy companies—have become an increasingly marginalized breed."

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #163 on: March 26, 2006, 09:58:21 AM »
:rofl

Well....................if it`s in Time, I concede as I`m sure everyone else will.
No agenda there. :D
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #164 on: March 26, 2006, 10:00:11 AM »
rolex... when I was growing up.... TIME MAGAZINE had an article... in fact, the cover story... about the coming inevitable doomsday ice age that I believe they said would hit before the year 2000...

Now, either TIME MAGAZINE is not worth me getting all upset about when it comes to something as incomprehensible as the earth and weather cycles and global warming/cooling or lack thereof or....  We are indeed fortunate that we were able to consume so much and cause enough global warming to reverse the trend.

So.. rather than read all the doom and gloom unproveable drivel that you seem to revel in (for whatever reason).....

What would you suggest we all do?  would you also admit that if we managed to stop all greenhouse gases from man that.... a couple of decent sized volcanos would undo all the great work?

Lets see some real solutions from you.... I know what the scientists think we should do.... they think we should put them on TV and give them bottomless grants to "study" the "problem".

What do you think we should do?

lazs