Author Topic: Islam in Afganisan is alive and well  (Read 2442 times)

Offline Jackal1

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #75 on: March 23, 2006, 09:42:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I'm dreadfully sorry Sparks old chap...but until YOU take a three day vacation in Qatar you can't REALLY be taken seriously as an authority on the Middle East and the religion of Islam.

Do book a vacation and get back to us afterwards?

Thanks!


 



I say old chap, I do hate to be a bother, but I beleive to become an INSTAspert it requires four days.
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Offline Seagoon

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Yet more Afghan Christians assaulted/arrested
« Reply #76 on: March 23, 2006, 11:38:50 PM »
A recent update on the Afghan situation, also some of the sadder details in the life story of Abdul Rahman:

MORE CHRISTIANS ARRESTED IN WAKE OF ‘APOSTASY’
Two other converts from Islam in custody; another hospitalized after beating.


March 22 (Compass) – An avalanche of media coverage of an Afghan man facing the death penalty for converting to Christianity has apparently sparked the arrest and deepening harassment of other Afghan Christians in the ultra-conservative Muslim country.

Authorities arrested Abdul Rahman, 41, last month for apostasy, a capital offense under strict Islamic laws still in place in Afghanistan, which four years ago was wrested from the Taliban regime’s hard-line Islamist control.

During the past few days, Compass has confirmed the arrest of two other Afghan Christians elsewhere in the country. Because of the sensitive situation, local sources requested that the location of the jailed converts be withheld.

This past weekend, one young Afghan convert to Christianity was beaten severely outside his home by a group of six men, who finally knocked him unconscious with a hard blow to his temple. He woke up in the hospital two hours later but was discharged before morning.

“Our brother remains steadfast, despite the ostracism and beatings,” one of his friends said.

Several other Afghan Christians have been subjected to police raids on their homes and places of work in the past month, as well as to telephone threats.

First Known Apostasy Case

Rahman was put on trial in Kabul last week for the “crime” of converting from Islam to Christianity and faces the death penalty for refusing to return to the Muslim faith.

But news of his case did not break until March 16, when Ariana TV announced it. According to the TV newscaster, Rahman was asked in court, “Do you confess that you have apostacized from Islam?” The defendant answered, “No, I am not an apostate. I believe in God.”

He was then questioned, “Do you believe in the Quran?” Rahman responded, “I believe in the New Testament, and I love Jesus Christ.”

Although Islamist militants have captured and murdered at least five Afghan Christians in the past two years for abandoning Islam, Rahman’s case is the local judiciary’s first known prosecution case for apostasy in recent decades.

During Rahman’s initial hearing before the head judge of Kabul’s Primary Court, he testified that he had become a Christian 16 years ago, while working with a Christian relief organization in the Pakistani city of Peshawar, near the Afghan border.

But after his conversion, Rahman’s wife divorced him, so their two infant daughters were taken back to Afghanistan, where they have been raised by their paternal grandparents.

Soon afterwards Rahman left Pakistan, and over the next few years he managed to enter several European countries. Although he attempted to apply for asylum, he was never able to obtain legal immigration status. After nine years, many of them in European detention centers because he had no valid papers, he was finally deported back to Afghanistan in 2002.

Back in Kabul, Rahman eventually contacted his family. In recent months, he tried repeatedly to regain custody of his daughters, now 13 and 14 years of age.

“The father finally went to the police in order to stop Abdul from contacting him, by telling them that Abdul converted to Christianity,” a Kabul source said. He was promptly taken into custody, interrogated and sent to jail to await trial.

Although Rahman is allowed to have a defense lawyer, he has declined, insisting he can defend himself. But according to Christian sources in Kabul, the convert suffers from recurring mental instability, which could alter the Islamic court’s handling of his case.

Rahman is reportedly incarcerated with 50 other prisoners in a cell designed for 15 in Kabul’s Central Prison, where members of the press have been denied access to him. Since he is estranged from his family, and prisoners are traditionally dependent upon food rations supplied by their families, it is unclear whether he is being fed regularly.

Labeled a ‘Cancer’

If Rahman is found guilty of apostasy and given the death penalty, as demanded by prosecutor Abdul Wasi, Afghan law permits him two final appeals – first to the provincial court, and then the Supreme Court.

Calling Rahman a “traitor to Islam,” Wasi told the court he was “like a cancer inside Afghanistan.”

Wasi told the Associated Press (AP) that when he offered to drop all the charges against Rahman if he returned to Islam, the defendant refused. “He said he was a Christian and would always remain one,” Wasi said.

“We are Muslims, and becoming a Christian is against our laws,” the prosecutor concluded. “He must get the death penalty.”

Rahman is being tried by Judge Ansarullah Mawlavizada, who has said he would issue a verdict on the case within two months.

“We are not against any particular religion in the world,” the judge told the AP on March 19. “But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law. It is an attack on Islam.”

On March 20, however, Judge Mawlavizada told the British Broadcasting Corporation that Rahman’s mental state would be considered first, “before he was dealt with under sharia [Islamic] law.”

President Hamid Karzai’s office has said the president will not intervene in the case. But today a religious adviser to Karzai announced that Rahman would be given psychological tests.

“Doctors must examine him,” Moayuddin Baluch told the AP. “If he is mentally unfit, definitely Islam has no claim to punish him. He must be forgiven. The case must be dropped.”

Although the Afghan government is clearly anxious to resolve Rahman’s case in order to satisfy international criticisms, the state-sponsored Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission has reportedly called for Rahman to be punished, insisting that he had “clearly violated Islamic law.”

Rahman’s plight dramatizes the judicial paradox within Afghanistan’s new constitution, ratified in January 2004. Although it guarantees freedom of religion to non-Muslims, it also prohibits laws that are “contrary to the beliefs and provisions of the sacred religion of Islam.”

At the same time, the constitution obliges the state to abide by the treaties and conventions it has signed, which include the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In outlining freedoms of thought, conscience and religion, Article 18 of this convention explicitly guarantees “freedom to change [one’s] religion or belief.”

Less than 1 percent of the Afghan population is non-Muslim, mostly Hindus and Sikhs. Among the millions of Afghans living abroad during recent decades of conflict in their homeland, some have openly declared themselves Christians. But no churches exist inside Afghanistan, and local converts to Christianity fear retribution if they declare their faith.
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Offline beet1e

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #77 on: March 24, 2006, 03:53:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sparks
Beet - how on earth can you judge Middle east Islam on Qatar - probably the most liberal westernised of the states - get real !!!
LOL What I actually said, several threads ago, was what you said here - Qatar is liberalised, which is not surprising considering that 75% of its population are expats.  My point was that not all Arab/Islam states can be tarred with the same brush, but need to be assessed individually.

My friend in Qatar lives with his girlfriend - this is strictly illegal, but they get away with it. He always refers to her as his wife, and she to him as her husband. However, in Saudi Arabia which is right next door, they could not chance it. They'd get flogged - even if they were simply to be riding in the same car together. As I have pointed out further up in this thread ^ you wouldn't want to live in Saudi, or even go there to visit. My Qatar friend worked/lived in Saudi for 6 months, and hated every second of it. But he really likes Qatar. Even though Qatar is an Islaminc society, there are thousands of people from "Christian" countries living openly amongst the general population, and they are accepted. It's not like Saudi where the infidels are banished to communes. You can walk through the sougs and be made to feel welcome, not just by the shopkeepers but by passers by in general.

As for other liberalised Muslim states - we have Turkey, a popular tourist destination. I've never been there, but I understand it's an interesting place where "Christians" need not feel threatened. The religions there are Sunni and Shia muslim (!) and, as you know, it's on the cards that Turkey might one day join the EU! - in which case you and I would have the legal right to live there if we chose to, even as non-muslims.

To say that all Arab/Islamic states are bad or that "Islam must be stamped out" is to use way too broad a brush...

As for the smart alecs who think that 4 days is too brief a visit to a place to qualify someone to hold an opinion, well some people are never satisfied. It wouldn't make any difference to them whether my visit had been 4 days or 4 years. For example, I spent three years in the US - on two separate occasions - and worked in cities like New York, Chicago, San Francisco and Denver, and travelled to about 41 states. And yet there are still people on this board who would say that I "know nothing about the US".
« Last Edit: March 24, 2006, 04:20:37 AM by beet1e »

Offline Toad

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #78 on: March 24, 2006, 07:10:44 AM »
It think just about everyone holds an opinion. That's no trick.

The trick is to voice it without looking like .... well.....



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Offline lazs2

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #79 on: March 24, 2006, 08:17:49 AM »
but....but.... what resteraunts did you guys go to?  that makes all the difference in how you judge a country.  weeks, or years, in a country are meaningless if the resteraunt doesn't have a decent wine list.

lazs

Offline SOB

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #80 on: March 24, 2006, 08:37:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
For example, I spent three years in the US - on two separate occasions - and worked in cities like New York, Chicago, San Francisco and Denver, and travelled to about 41 states. And yet there are still people on this board who would say that I "know nothing about the US".

Yeah, that would be folks from the US who call you on it when you start talking out of your bellybutton about "how it is" over here.
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Offline Jackal1

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #81 on: March 24, 2006, 08:38:07 AM »
I say........rightO old bean what.
The restaurants are the true cultural rule by which any nation can be learned from.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline lazs2

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #82 on: March 24, 2006, 08:46:34 AM »
beet.... I would say that spending 3 years here and not learning anything about the U.S. or it's people does not bode well for your expert status in the middle east based on a 4 day trip to some vacation spot.

lazs

Offline beet1e

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #83 on: March 24, 2006, 10:15:45 AM »
Lazs - I never claimed to have "expert status" on the Middle East. Those are your words, not mine. And... while I was there, I went to 2 restaurants for a total of about 3 hours out of the 4 days I was there. And I've already said that Qatar is no vacation spot. Do try to keep up!
:aok
Quote
Originally posted by SOB
Yeah, that would be folks from the US who call you on it when you start talking out of your bellybutton about "how it is" over here.
You mean I'm wrong about Oregon motorists not being allowed to pump their own gas? :lol
« Last Edit: March 24, 2006, 10:22:01 AM by beet1e »

Offline Seagoon

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #84 on: March 24, 2006, 03:47:38 PM »
I probably shouldn't have found this satirical commentary on the situation as funny as I did...

http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2224
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Urchin

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #85 on: March 25, 2006, 01:12:48 PM »
Lol, I probably shouldn't have found this as funny as I did... pulled this off the guy's Wiki page.

This is from the Afghan supreme court justice who is trying the "case".  

The chief judge and Afghan Supreme Court justice Ansarullah Mawlawizadah said that Rahman would be asked to reconsider his conversion: "We will invite him again because the religion of Islam is one of tolerance. We will ask him if he has changed his mind. If so we will forgive him." Judge Mawlawizadah further noted that "The Prophet Muhammad has said several times that those who convert from Islam should be killed if they refuse to come back" and that even while this is so, "Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. That is why we have told [Rahman] if he regrets what he did, then we will forgive him".

I just find it ironic, in a retarded kind of way...

Offline SOB

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #86 on: March 25, 2006, 08:23:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
:aok You mean I'm wrong about Oregon motorists not being allowed to pump their own gas? :lol

Yes, your statement about "Oregon motorists" is incorrect.  While is it not legal for an individual to pump their own gas at a standard retail station, it is legal for customers of unmanned commercial stations to pump their own gas.  It is also legal for me to fuel up my state vehicle at the state motorpool.

See, there you are again, burping another half-truth out of your ass.  Perhaps if you stuck to a subject that you had actual knowledge of, you wouldn't look quite so foolish.
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Offline beet1e

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2006, 03:43:08 AM »
LOL SOB - I think you've been reading too many HoldenMcGroin posts!

Offline Maverick

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #88 on: March 26, 2006, 12:17:56 PM »
SOB, good observation but don't hold your breath.


As far as the Afghanistan Court issue. It seems that the court has had a change of heart, at least temporarily.
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/afghanistan

They are dropping the case but the attorney general is still investigating it. They are using the mentally incompetent angle as well, my guess is for face saving. They look good for sparing the "nut case" and since he would be a "nut case" he can't be held responsible for changing from islam either.
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Offline Urchin

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2006, 03:47:01 PM »
Actually... it isn't a bad argument to use.  

After all, refusing to say "OK, I renounce Christianity" and dying for it when it would be easy enough to say "Gee, I'm so sorry for leaving the fold", then moving back to Germany to practice his religion in peace seems a little crazy.

Would be rather like Moorish spain, where Christians said stuff to piss Muslims off because they wanted to be martyred.  Gotta hand it to those folks, that is faith.