Author Topic: p51 wtf (Read 1436 times)

Squire · « **Reply #15 on:** April 05, 2006, 11:34:53 PM »

"try a spit mk8 or 16 or a zeke or N1k"

As much as I have nothing against Spits and N1K2s it would be nice to see players trying to master other types.

I think we vets are partially responsible for all the TB rides, because when we get asked a Q, we just say "try a Spit or a N1K", and so we get what we deserve.

Master the 51 first, then go on to some other type, nothing wrong with that, hell, maybe he will take a liking to Yaks or something.

...and stay away from LA-7s they are a crappy ride.

ujustdied · « **Reply #16 on:** April 05, 2006, 11:51:52 PM »

no i dont use ord but i used be able to out turn most fighters in a p51 in a 1V1 deul but it seems like the stall really hurts it. it just seems like it added 500 axtra pounds. i used to fly the nik before this plane and man can that thing turn. it almost seems like it can turn better. as for spits and la7s i just leave thoughs plane for the newbs.

catfish6

Spatula · « **Reply #17 on:** April 06, 2006, 12:12:29 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by ujustdied
i used be able to out turn most fighters in a p51 in a 1V1 deul...

define what you mean by 'out-turn'.
Do you mean an 'on-the-buzzer' stall fight? Are you referring to sustained turn rate or instaneous turn rate??
The P51 has very respectable instananeous turn-rate, but it sustained turn rate is significantly less than par.
Check this out for emperical evidence of the P51s sustained turn rate relative to other planes in the AH2 stable.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155592

She is hardly a turn'n burn plane...

It has a nice instantaneous turn rate, but thats something quite different.

Quote

Originally posted by ujustdied
i used be able to out turn most fighters in a p51 in a 1V1 deul...

Anyone who knows anything about getting the most from a P51 would know that trying to 'out turn' most fighters is playing seriously away from the P51s key strengths and into the hands of other better sustained-turning planes - which is 70% of the fighter plane-set.

kamilyun · « **Reply #18 on:** April 06, 2006, 02:08:44 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Spatula
The P51 can out turn a number of things, but it never was, and never will be a stall-fighter. If you want to prevail in angles fighting try a spit mk8 or 16 or a zeke or N1k.

I beg to differ kitchen utensil...

I'm not sure what you classify as a good stall fighter. Could you give some examples? Not being sarcastic...I just don't know what the list of top 10 stall fighters are....

For me the pony is a GREAT stall fighter. While it doesn't have the acceleration of some planes (Spit 16, La 7) it is a very clean ride and keeps energy well in the vertical. I often 'rope a dope' in the pony with reasonable success. K14s, G10s and Lalas must be dealt with carefully, but most other planes can be roped up with ease.

I just use rudder when I'm stalling at the top, flick the nose down and get a nice top shot on most NMEs.

Now, D pony is heavier and has nastier snap roll, but the B pony is a joy in a stall fight...just doesn't always get the job done in 1 pass w- only 4x .50 cals.

My 2 cents.

x0847Marine · « **Reply #19 on:** April 06, 2006, 03:37:38 AM »

One day Ill try that B51, sounds neat.

Furball · « **Reply #20 on:** April 06, 2006, 03:40:25 AM »

p51 is plane that won the war!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spatula · « **Reply #21 on:** April 06, 2006, 04:00:31 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by kamilyun
I beg to differ kitchen utensil...

I'm not sure what you classify as a good stall fighter. Could you give some examples? Not being sarcastic...I just don't know what the list of top 10 stall fighters are....

For me the pony is a GREAT stall fighter. While it doesn't have the acceleration of some planes (Spit 16, La 7) it is a very clean ride and keeps energy well in the vertical. I often 'rope a dope' in the pony with reasonable success. K14s, G10s and Lalas must be dealt with carefully, but most other planes can be roped up with ease.

I just use rudder when I'm stalling at the top, flick the nose down and get a nice top shot on most NMEs.

Now, D pony is heavier and has nastier snap roll, but the B pony is a joy in a stall fight...just doesn't always get the job done in 1 pass w- only 4x .50 cals.

My 2 cents.

Hmmm, ok seems we are talking about different things. What i mean by 'stall-fighting' (and a widely accepted definition of it), is basically an extreme angles-fight taken to your and your enemies sustained-turn limits (eg on the edge of a stall trying to out-turn each other to gain angular advantage by turning at the maximum turn rate your a/c can manage without falling out of the sky).
If thats what you also mean, then examples can be found here:
Kweassa's Sustained Turn Rate Compendium
This clearly shows some 70% of all of the AH2 fighters as having a sustained turn-rate advantage over the P51-D. I can also personally vouch for those figures from years of experience.

From what i gather from your reply, is that you mean 'stall fighting' as a planes ability to zoom up higher than your enemy and be able to hammerhead over (stalled-nose-over) and shoot at the scrambling bogey. Then if this is what you mean, then you are 1/2 way right. The P51 is neither the master of the zoom climb nor by any stretch the worst. Zoom climb ability is a combination of all sorts of things, none of which are what this thread is about (as is my understanding).

Im not claiming to the best P51 pilot here, but i have spent 95% of my time in AH1 and AH2 in one, so i feel qualified to add my opinion. I still stand by claim the P51 aint no turn-fighter, never was, never will be. Im not saying you cant turn fight in it, you can, but its not the best tactic to employ for that a/c as you are not using its full potential by doing that.

I have not noticed any significant change to the P51s flight characteristics in the last patch. Sure it buffets now when you start stalling it, but the answer is painfully simple, dont get it that slow... (unless of course your roping someone

)

bigsky406 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 06, 2006, 02:07:28 PM »

To answer your question Catfish6, yes I too am having problems with the P51. Before the latest downloads I was progressing right along with the Mustang and now I'm learning it all over again.

Turns like a fat pig and I haven't figured out how to correct this?? Has to be a way... I have no illusion of out turning a Spit or Zero but a D-Hog (and everything else) swing around on my six SO FAST, any speed and ALT. Then I can never shake them without wing support.

I try to think ahead, make good moves but...?? I've gone back to being cannon fodder... At least until I figure this "new" plane config out.

The solution is out there. (que music to the X-Files)

Kweassa · « **Reply #23 on:** April 06, 2006, 02:48:05 PM »

Quote

Turns like a fat pig and I haven't figured out how to correct this?? Has to be a way... I have no illusion of out turning a Spit or Zero but a D-Hog (and everything else) swing around on my six SO FAST, any speed and ALT. Then I can never shake them without wing support.

That's simply because the F4U is that much better a turner than the P-51.

List of AH2 planes in order of smallest Turn Radius at normal flight conditions
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F4U-1D:            216.4m
F4U-1:            219.2m
F4U-4:            227.2m
F4U-1C:            242.1m
P-51B:            243.9m
P-47D-11:         250.5m
P-51D:            258.6m

List of AH2 planes in order of smallest Turn Radius with first notch of flaps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F4U-1D:            201.5m
F4U-1:            206.2m
F4U-4:            207.5m
F4U-1C:            213.5m
P-51B:            213.7m
P-51D:            224.2m

List of AH2 planes in order of smallest Turn Radius with full flaps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F4U-4:            144.7m
F4U-1D:            148.7m
F4U-1:            150.9m
F4U-1C:            156.6m
P-51D:            189.4m
P-51B:            193.1m

For a small comparison, the P-51D has a 42.2m larger turning radius than the F4U-1D at normal flight. That's roughly parallel to the amount of difference in turning radius between an A6M2 Zero and the Spit9.

viper215 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 06, 2006, 02:50:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by sharp8th
dont you ever stop b***hing about things

Nap time??

Yea the p51 is getting worse. Me and skatsr have been trying to outturn spits in it. We could before the new patch. Cant after it.

Karnak · « **Reply #25 on:** April 06, 2006, 02:52:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by viper215
Nap time??

Yea the p51 is getting worse. Me and skatsr have been trying to outturn spits in it. We could before the new patch. Cant after it.

And this is wrong why? Sounds like a fix to me.

332nd outlaw · « **Reply #26 on:** April 06, 2006, 03:40:33 PM »

i actually find it more stable now but thats probably because i back off when it vibrates now... no i can't turn with a spit anymore but then they still not much of a problem..the pony might not turn with a spit but most spit pilots it will turn against if not with and for those pilots that are smart enough to fight the vertical fight with ya it can just leave behind as long as you got some alt the pony maitains e better then the spitties do.. the pony still a decent stall fighter as long as you keep it vertical and only against the heavier birds but stall fighting in the MA is a death sentence what ever you are in...but the facts are the pony is a E fighter and E=speed & alt the less u have of one the more you need of the other....

x0847Marine · « **Reply #27 on:** April 06, 2006, 03:42:27 PM »

51B seems a bit different after the patch for sure, but I'm still out angling whatever turn fighter you want (depending on who the other gamer is)... it just took a little getting used to which was actually a minor challenge to figure out.

Maybe lots of folks don't like to climb out to 13-15 or 20K, but up there is where the B performs best. Dip below 10k and it'll feel heavier, yoyo between 8 and 13k while sniping those below and IMO its mostly the same.

Besides, those of you who think it takes "skill" to play a game, and those who think they have such "skill" should have no problems... employ your alleged skill, overcome the difference, and be done with it... that's what having skill is all about.

Hey, you can even write a "skill manifesto" to share your pearls of gaming wisdom with the unwashed skill less masses.

Squire · « **Reply #28 on:** April 06, 2006, 03:51:02 PM »

I think players often attribute not being about to out turn X plane because of FM changes, when in reality, it had everything to do with a specific encounter.

The Spits you out turned before, what fuel load did they have, E states, skill of the pilots, combat trim on or off? How do you know?

Too often the 1st thing folks say is "the FM changed" < and don't think of all the other reasons it may be.

Btw I killed a Spit 16 in my 51D last night, coalt merge at 15k, down to the deck, in a stall fite. So, it can still happen, but that doesnt "prove" a FM change because this or that happened to you. Sometimes a player stalls a Spit, sometimes not, every fight is different. Some cant fly N1K2s worth beans.

...Personally I find the 51s able turn very well, as long as they arent carrying a gazzilion gallons of fuel, and you use combat flaps where needed.

Lye-El · « **Reply #29 on:** April 06, 2006, 04:01:53 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by CHECKERS
The fun of using the Spits for turn fighting down low & slow in the weeds and trees, are now also just as crapy .......

Yeah, they are. I used to fly the Spit 8. Now it's a dog. Haven't found another plane I like yet. Probably spend more time in an Osti.