Why people think the 51D is so uber?

[F4UDOA]

SAS_Kid,

I get that feeling sometimes as well.

However I think it is the opposite in AH that in real life. There really are not that many P-51 geeks out there as there are 190, 109, Spit or even F4U (me) to argue the merits of the thing and ever detail that could be added. The P-51 performance is outstanding in fact it could be argued that it is undermodeled in AH to a degree.

It was legitamately the fastest prop fighter of the war from top to bottom. You can argue different aircraft were faster at different altitudes but the P-51D was the fastest overall. It did not even use water or ADI to achieve that speed. The climb was underated considering it carried a mother load of fuel and did not need it all for combat. With the addition of 150 octane fuel it could climb with the best the LW had while being faster and having the fastest combat diving ability (not special conditions or test flights) and excellent high speed characteristics.

Granted it was not ideally suited for close in fighting as some but it did so many things so well that it's short comings get overlooked.

I think some of the most impressive things that it has achived have been post war in cross country and closed course air racing. An amazing airplane really.

[HoHun]

Hi F4UDOA,

Very fair treatment you give the P-51 there :-)

Maybe an interesting perspective for you: The original "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" game manual had an interview with a historian who maintained that the USA wouldn't really have needed the P-51 (despite its obvious qualities) since they already had a fighter of comparable range and performance in service - the F4U :-) However, since this was a Navy aircraft, the USAAF, suffering from the Not Invented Here syndrome, the USAAF failed to employ it.

Personally, I believe this might be a bit of a simplification considering the problems generally inherent in procurement, but as you are our resident F4U expert, I'd like to hear your opinion on this :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[G0ALY]

It was always my understanding that the P51 did not win the war. Neither did any other fighter for that matter. But what the P51 with its extraordinary range did do... Was to allow the previously unescorted bombers to win the war. Whether they were superior to their counterparts in every way or not is not the point. Their purpose, and they did perform it very well, was to see that more heavies got to the target.

[Jebus]

OH Secrete Weapons of the Luftfalafa.   My first WW2 combat simulator, and fell in WW2 planes since.

Honestly P51 gets all the credit, but when you think about it the P47(my love) did almost all the work.  They had the widest job assignment threw out the war and yet it gets very little credit.  Besides Recon and S&R what jobs didnt it do.  It was a pretty success fighter.  Had good range.  Great Weapons.  But they give all the credit to the P51.  I am sorry I think the Jug needs its credit.

[HoHun]

Hi Schwein,

>The P-51 was a mediocre fighter in all respects except speed and range

... which were the decisive respects.

"Turning doesn't win battles", for those who have not heard it before.

That these immortal words were spoken by a Spitfire ace should give everyone who disagrees a reason for contemplation.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Jebus
Honestly P51 gets all the credit, but when you think about it the P47(my love) did almost all the work.  

Agreed.  51 came in and cleaned up the youngsters after the 47 killed the vets.

- oldman

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by HoHun
The original "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" game manual had an interview with a historian who maintained

Williamson Murray.  I think he still teaches at Ohio State.  Don't know how they got him to do the interview for tha manual, but he's one of the brightest aviation historians there's ever been.

...er....in my opinion, of course.

- oldman

[Raptor]

I think the reason the P51 gets so much fame is because it flew with the bombers to their targets and back. A lot of attention was given to the 8th AF and Thats where the P51 shined. In the PTO the P38 was the plane of choice, having long range and 2 engines made it safer to fly over the vast distances of water.

[bkbandit]

somebody should get the fighter scores for 51 and 47.  The 47 did alot of things but you cant say that the 47 did all the work.  Post some stats.

[F4UDOA]

It is an interesting theory that the P-47 did the leg work for the P-51 in Europe, I have argued the same for the F4F and F4U in the PAC vs the F6F.

Personally, I believe this might be a bit of a simplification considering the problems generally inherent in procurement, but as you are our resident F4U expert, I'd like to hear your opinion on this :-)

What I think would have happened is that it (F4U) would have evolved in a different direction such as the production of the F4U-3 with the Supercharger and 4 blade paddle prop. This airplane was flying and in tested by the Navy in late 1942. It would have enhanced the high alt performance and climb rate.

I just liberated some NAVAER documents from the Naval Warfare Center about a week ago. It shows the early Navy testing of the F4U-3 and the speed of the F4U-1D without Pylons at 434MPH at 20K and 367MPH at sea level in 1944. I think this performance could have been utilzed more as a fighter than a fighter bomber had it flown it's Tiny Tim Missions against V1's as planned before D-Day.

Other that that it had many attributes that would have served it well in Europe. Range, Turn, Roll and better than most speed. I believe the F4U-4 would have been in service sooner to combat the D9 and K4. The 109G and 190A would have been facing the F4U-1 series. Obviously high alt performance and climb wouild have had to be addressed much sooner in the Euro theater.

[Jebus]

Originally posted by bkbandit
somebody should get the fighter scores for 51 and 47.  The 47 did alot of things but you cant say that the 47 did all the work.  Post some stats.

You cant compair Fighter scores with the 51 against the 47 because there were so many 47 built.  I shouldnt say it did all the work, but you have to admit the Jug did most of the work.  It held its own in two different theaters, with two totally differant fighter types.  

In the PT it had to go agaist slow better turning planes.  In ET it went agaist faster planes.  It had success against both.  Plus it Jabo, and did close air support like no other fighter in the war.

All really the P51 do is escort bombers.

[bkbandit]

the 51 was in the fightin the japs aswell as the jug.  And the jug didnt do most of the work.  51 maintained air dominace over both europe and japan.  And the 51 more or less replaced the 47. And still we are forgeting the p38s,f4us,f6fs and even the p40. The allies had alot of good fighters but the 51 was the top of the line.  DOnt get me wrong i like jugs but to say they did most of the work is disrespectful to all the other great fighter planes.  

I think the aces high jug isnt what its supposed to be and needs to be reworked.  I have read some storys about jug being chased by 109s and just taking all the punishment until the 109 run out of ammo and went home. Pilot lands and counts over 150 hits all over the plane from machine guns and cannons but thats a whole new post in itself.

[Jebus]

let me refraze the Jug did most of the work.  I mean most of the work in the ET.

Nothing against the F4u, F6F, or any other plan.

[SAS_KID]

where did the pacific war come in???? I was talking about against Germany... jeez who cares about the Japan war:lol

[Schwein]

Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Schwein,

>The P-51 was a mediocre fighter in all respects except speed and range

... which were the decisive respects.  

Didn't I make that clear enough?