Author Topic: Registered Perfection in Canada  (Read 1196 times)

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2000, 05:41:00 PM »
Toad croaked...
"
Given the previous stats though, if a handgun WAS used in Canada in a murder it's a safe bet that it was unregistered.

...and that's the point. Registration doesn't prevent anything.
"
With the worlds largest market for easy buy handguns on the other side of the longest open border in the world, I think we have accomplished quite abit to get where we are.
How can you say registration doesnt prevent anything. How do you now that we would not have 3 times the murder rate(and attempted murder) if we had as easy access to handguns as you do.
Our laws are based on the qualified opinion that there is a correlation between gun availability and gun usage.
Your stats seem to indicate we are correct.


To paraphrase toad..
Handguns are used in a high % of murders. Therefore we must make them available to all.


My 7 year old son said after watching a comercial for the new registration scheme the other day.
"But dad. Assasins wont care if they have to register guns..."
I asked him when was the last time we had an assasin around.
Was it worth having lots of guns sitting arround in peoples closets waiting for the urge to use them just because an assasin might be able to get a gun and you wont?
He feels better knowing that less guns means less chance of being shot by one. Find a statistic somewhere that refutes that obvios fact.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2000, 06:50:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Gman:
...a bunch of hindus...

Interesting turn of phrase... how could you tell, were they carrying the Bhagavad Gita as well as tire-irons?

War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2000, 12:21:00 AM »
 
Quote
.

My 7 year old son said after watching a comercial for the new registration scheme the other day.
"But dad. Assasins wont care if they have to register guns..."
I asked him when was the last time we had an assasin around.
Was it worth having lots of guns sitting arround in peoples closets waiting for the urge to use them just because an assasin might be able to get a gun and you wont?
He feels better knowing that less guns means less chance of being shot by one. Find a statistic somewhere that refutes that obvios fact.


Pongo,

Your 7 year old son feels safe because you told him to feel safe. He hit it right on the head. Very perceptive young man there. He saw the falacy you have now convinced him is truth.

Those intent on mayhem upon another person do not give a flying fart in a windstorm about registration. Why worry about breaking that law when they are already prepared to break several others more serious. If your son is ever in a position to be faced by that type of person, even in his own home, he will likely not have the means to defend himself. I hope he never does have that situation thrust upon him.

Societal predators are mostly cowards but they will hurt you or kill you if they wish to. They do know an unarmed victim, preferably an infirm victim is far easier prey than one who can defend themselves.

Mav
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2000, 01:03:00 AM »

Digging a little deeper into the stats here.

The FBI report uses the Uniform Crime Reporting PROGRAM while the Canadian Statistics uses the Uniform Crime Reporting SYSTEM. Except for a few differences in category titles, they seem identical.

The FBI helpfully provides definitions (used sparingly here to keep things straight) while the Canadian site does not.

RATES PER 100,000

Violent Crime

1999 US - 525
1999 Canada - 955

MURDER AND NONNEGLIGENT MANSLAUGHTER

Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, as defined in the Uniform Crime Reporting
Program, is the willful (nonnegligent) killing of one human being by another.
The classification of this offense, as for all other Crime Index offenses, is based solely on police investigation as opposed to the determination of a court, medical examiner, coroner, jury, or other judicial body. Not included in the count for this offense classification are deaths caused by negligence, suicide, or accident; justifiable homicides; and attempts to murder or assaults to murder, which are scored as aggravated assaults.

MURDER

1999 US - 5.7
1999 Canada - 1.76

********************

AGGRAVATED ASSAULT

1999 US - 336
1999 Canada - 727

*******************

Forcible rape, as defined in the Uniform Crime Reporting Program, is the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will. Assaults or attempts to commit rape by force or threat of force are also included; however, statutory rape (without force) and other sex offenses are excluded.

Canadian Statistics use Sexual Assault

Forcible Rape/Sexual Assault

1999 US - 32.7
1999 Canada - 78.3

*************************

Robbery

1999 US - 150
1999 Canada - 94

**********************

Property Crime

1999 US - 3742
1999 Canada - 4265

**********************

Burglary

1999 US - 770
1999 Canada - 1044

***********************

Larceny-theft

1999 US - 2551
1999 Canada - 2301

***********************

Motor Vehicle Theft
1999 US - 420
1999 Canada - 529

       

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-18-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2000, 01:18:00 AM »
Ding,

I'll try one more time too, if you don't mind.  

I'm not the one trying to prove the efficacy of gun registration. Others here are making the claim that it and it alone is a solution to violent crime.

I think the point I am making is obvious.

For years and years people in the US have suggested that in the event of a registration law in the US, PRIMARILY only the law-abiding citizens will register. Those most likely to commit crimes (CRIMINALS) will NOT register.

The liberals here disagree with that idea.

I think the Canadian Stats put an end to this argument. Clearly, the Criminals PRIMARILY do NOT register.

All you succeed in doing is wasting time and money registering people who are PRIMARILY no threat to society.

Show me ANYTHING that has dropped violent crime rates 60% in one year...like Project Exile HAS in Richmond....that does not deal DIRECTLY with the Criminal. It's not the law-abiding citizen; restricting him is pointless.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2000, 01:29:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo:
Our laws are based on the qualified opinion that there is a correlation between gun availability and gun usage.
Your stats seem to indicate we are correct.

There may well be a correlation between availability and usage.

Unfortunately, REGISTRATION itself has NO correlation to availability.

Unless, of course, you are saying that REGISTRATION is only a means to use to REDUCE AVAILABILITY?

That is, it is just one step on the way towards the goal of total elimination of guns?

These stats show nothing about the effect that registration has had on availability, BTW.

They have done no research that is present in THIS study that even addresses that question.

There are way too many variables in that assumption anyway. You're just stating a totally unproven, unresearched hypothesis, IE: Gun Registration reduces the number of firearms in private possession.

Got any hard data?

 
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2000, 01:46:00 AM »
From the Second Debate......

GORE: Well, I'm not for registration. I am for licensing by states of new handgun purchases so that...


If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Igloo

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« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2000, 11:54:00 AM »
Pongo, people are pigheaded and paranoid when it comes to their guns.  Let it be, nothing you can say will convince them of anything when that is the society they have been brought up in.  

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Offline CavemanJ

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« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2000, 01:04:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Igloo:
Pongo, people are pigheaded and paranoid when it comes to their guns.  Let it be, nothing you can say will convince them of anything when that is the society they have been brought up in.  


Well now.. so I'm pigheaded and paranoid now eh?  Guess Toad is too.
Better than being delusional and ignorant to facts that are plain to see and are right infront of your face because they dinnae agree with your fantasy world.

This is a simple fact:
To stop/reduce crime you must eliminate the criminal (jail/execution/whatever), or remove the reason for the crime.

Guns DO NOT cause crime.  They are merely one of the tool with which criminals persue thier ill gotten gain.  Everyone screams for gun registration and more gun control laws.  Those laws will only affect me and other law abiding citizens.  Where do these laws stop the criminals?

Scroll up and read Gman's post again.  Read the ENTIRE thing.  It's easy to get a gun if you want one, and registration WILL NOT stop anyone who is committed to getting one.

Pongo says:
"With the worlds largest market for easy buy handguns on the other side of the longest open border in the world, I think we have accomplished quite abit to get where we are."
Then goes on to talk about registration reducing the number of available guns.  Hate to tell ya this, but with that long, open border on the largest gun market in the world, if someone wants a gun they're gonna get it, and they'll flip the finger at your registration laws mate.

Everyone has become so convinced that registering/removing guns is the solution to all crime problems.  Those who actually believe this are delusional and need a serious reality check.

I really wish all you anti-gun liberals would wake up to the line you're being force fed and quit trying to force your visions of a perfect world on the rest of us.  All the measures all of you people say would work only affect ME and all other LAW-ABIDING gun owners, and we are the ones you need not fear.

I am a gun owner and have been for 20 of my 28 years on this planet.  I've been licensed to carry and have been carrying for the past 7 years (got it on my 21st b-day).  I've never used a gun to perpetrate any crime, and in fact I have stopped some criminals and even saved a couple of lives because I had my sidearm on me.  I've had police officers tell me that they wish there were more citizens like me around, who aren't afraid to stand up and defend a perfect stranger from a criminal who's trying to rob/mug them (or worse).

And now you want me to register my guns so a few years down the road you can come confiscate them?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2000, 07:32:00 PM »
   
Quote
Originally posted by Igloo:
...nothing you can say will convince them of anything when that is the society they have been brought up in.

Oh, I don't know. Give this a try for once:

Try "Saying" some proveable facts and posting verifiable data. That might work.

I'm not going to apologize for being raised in a society where Factual Data is more respected than an unsupported Personal Opinion.

That's the sum of it too. You NEVER post any verifiable data and you run away from any discussion where people counter your opinion with published, factual reports supported by verifiable data.
 
   

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-18-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Gman

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« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2000, 07:49:00 PM »
Heh, good luck Toad, Tree Huggers don't like facts, they prefer to live in their own little idea of what the world should be like.

Here in Canada, our existing laws are where you US guys are heading if that lying idiot Gore gets in, so brace yourselves.

Our laws here have absolutely no effect on criminals, especially the organized crime sector, with which I'm familiar with a few members.  Running illegal firearms to drug-heads is as simple as driving through a 6 inch ditch in any of the Prarie provinces here from N.Dokata, Utah, or Montana.  I know because I've seen it done.

If governments were actually serious about reducing gun crimes, they'd attack the criminals instead, but then they'd be attacking guys the have closet deals with, and their own pockets would suffer.

The Canadian Police Association here (My old man was prez for 2 years in the early nineties) was very gung ho for the latest gun law, until they realized all the red-tape B.S. involved.  They really got worried when only about 10% of the people had bothered registering their firearms in the Provinces with the most guns, since the law-makers informed them that they were the ones who would have to drive around to all the "suspected" houses with firearms and deal with the folks.  Talk about looking for trouble.

I.E.  Seventy year old farmer, who is VERY set in his ways, and already dislikes the gov't, but normaly would have no problems with the police will probably behave very dangerously when the cops come to tell him he is now a criminal and must turn in his varmit rifle that he's had in the family for years.  

Also, the only point the anti-gun retards argue here is that "now the police will know which house has guns and which doesn't".  ROFL!  What idiocy!  Every police officer always assumes the worst on a call, and just because some computer says that the house is un-armed, doesn't mean he can know for certain it is, since criminals don't bother registering their weapons.  Typical left-wing democrat/liberal brain deadness.  God I wish they'd all go live somewhere else.

Since most of my firearms are already restricted, this registration bunk doesn't have me to worked up, but if they really wanted the people to comply, they should have given something in return.  If they said conceal carry permits are available to all those who qualify if they register their long guns, you can bet that they'd have ten times the amount of compliance.

The money is the real issue here, since it's going to cost everyone a minimum of 100$ from this date forward, and then a hell of a lot more for guys with large collections if they hold out and wait for the election here, in hopes of the law being overturned.  If they gave me the option of donating 100$ to the RCMP, FBI, or local P.D., I'd much rather see my money be responsible for another cop on the street, instead of lining some studmuffingot member of parliament's pockets (Alan "I'm a target for life now" Rock), as well as serving his own roadkill political agenda.



[This message has been edited by Gman (edited 10-18-2000).]

Offline Toad

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« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2000, 11:42:00 PM »
Gman, you called it.

They split, I guess, as soon as real crime stats were posted instead of unsupported opinion.

I suspect our laws will swing your way in any event. It is only a matter of time.

The "city folk" breed like rabbits and the country folk don't.

I really wasn't aware that you guys had more violent crime AND more property crime in Canada than we do in the States. That was the biggest suprise of my web search. I knew we were leading in the sub-category of murder; just saw they are expanding Poject CeaseFire....there is some hope that common sense is taking hold. Nationwide, I think it would quickly drop the murder rate.

The Sexual Assault stats amazed me too. I guess you guys better get after registering those "pocket pistols" that keep coming unzipped!    

Nice hearing a different side from Canada for a change. I used to hunt and fish there quite a bit but life has gotten hectic the last six years or so. Beautiful out in the country! I loved it.

       

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-19-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-19-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2000, 12:34:00 AM »
Its hard to argue with numbers that say Canada is twice as violent as the States.
It doenst seem that way. I must be missing something. Maybe in gmans nabourhood they have 600 times the national average in violent crimes and that tilts the stats.

Mav. I will teach my boys alot about conflict resolution and avoidence and settlement. Like most children in the world they will not have the pull your gun option.
They will have to be brave enough to do without.
In honesty I have to admit. That if I lived in many parts of the states I would probably feel much more inclined to own a gun(oh ya I do own a gun) but a gun for defence. But where I live it just seems a total non requirement. I guess you could say I am gambling. I think its a safe bet. For me and my kids and their kids.
Toad you seem to have all the stats. Isnt there a stat somewhere that correlates the chance of being killed by a gun with having a gun in the house..

Offline CavemanJ

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« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2000, 01:25:00 AM »
Pongo, yes, the chances of an accident with a firearm go up when there's a firearm in the house.  Alot of the gun death statistics that the anti-gun media loves to tout include all of the accident deaths, suicides, and justifiable homicides when they talk about violent crime.  It's a scare tactic, and unfortunately it works too well.

But, as with anything that you can have an accident with, proper education and training will greatly reduce the number of accidents.  I think most parents dinnae realize just how many places kids can get into, and even more dinnae bother to talk to thier kids in a rational manner about the dangers of firearms.  Proper storage techniques, along with proper education of the children in the house, will reduce the chances of a firearm accident back to around the level of no firearms present in the house.

Everyone makes such a big deal out of them that the kids want to know what it's about.  This leads to accidents.  The chances increase greatly when the parents dinnae properly store thier firearm and ammunition, and both are where the kids can get to them.

A couple years back HBO did a show about 5 guns that had been involved in accidental deaths.  The show had a blantant anti-gun bias to it.  But the last guy, who's child was killed playing with a revolver, gets some credit (and prolly pissed off the producers of the show).  He took credit, and near the end of his segment he said he should've put the gun up where he knew the child couldna get it.

This is a problem that registration will do nothing to help, because registration does not provide training.  And yes, I'm in favor of providing proof that you've passed a firearm safety course before you can purchase a firearm.  Something similar to the hunter's safety course you have to take before you can get your tags for deer season.

BTW, your chances of dying in a traffic accident greatly increase every time you get into a motor vehicle and get out on the highways.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2000, 05:24:00 AM »
You guys really like your labels, don't you? 'Tree Hugger', indeed.

You sound like a bunch of extras from 'Deliverance'.  
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.