Author Topic: A letter for critics of United 93  (Read 1633 times)

Offline Jackal1

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2006, 10:21:36 AM »
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There are those who would hope to escape the pain of war. Can't we just live and let live and pretend every thing is OK? Let's discuss, negotiate, reason together. The film accurately shows an enemy who will stop at nothing in a quest for control. This enemy does not seek our resources, our land or our materials, but rather to alter our very way of life.


Very well put. That seems to be the biggest problem in getting through to the masses. There is no negoiating, talking, BS`n around it. these people have one goal and that is to have us dead or on our face.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2006, 10:43:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by E25280
...Said culture supported actively by many governments in the middle east.  Iraq one of said governments.  .



Really?  What proof?  Even Bush had to admit there was no tanglible link between Osama bin-Laden and Saddam Hussein and there has been absolutely no proof of any collaboration between Iraq under Hussein and Osama bin-Laden.  

The war in Iraq was stupid waste of money, resources and most important, US lives.  Over 2000+ US dead for what?  Is our world safer?  Is oil cheaper?  Is Osama in jail or dead?  


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Offline Mustaine

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2006, 10:51:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Really?  What proof?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/27/walq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/04/27/ixnewstop.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/746741/posts

just a few reports.

go ahead and post your contrary reports, i will dismiss them the same way you will dismiss my links.
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Offline E25280

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2006, 11:05:28 AM »
Ack Ack, this is the problem I am referring to.  You seem to be arguing that if we got Osama, we could all go home and everything would be right with the world.  It wouldn't.  Some other crackpot will simply take his place.  That is why you need to "change the culture", so people like Osama will be fringe characters and not heros in that part of the world.

War on Terrorism.  Not war on Al-Quaeda.  Big difference.

Iraq's support of terrorism is well established, including payments made to families of suicide bombers, training camps, etc.  They were by no means the largest player in this regard, but they were a player.  They were also an "easy target" to get a foot in the door.  If things had gone "well" in Iraq, I am convinced we would be in either Tehran or Damascus by now. And don't think that point isn't lost on those countries -- why do you think they are actively encouraging and aiding their people to infiltrate into Iraq and join the so-called insurgency?  They are trying to tie us down, and unfortunately doing a good job of it.

Again, change the regimes that sponsor terrorism, change the culture that creates terrorism, and eventually terrorism dries up.  That is the overriding goal, and has been stated as such, despite so many people trying to muddy the water over that fact.

Unfortunately it is easy for people to lose sight of the goal -- too many self-serving politicians trying to make political hay rather than see the big picture, and a doting press that slavishly repeats their talking points.  And a president who unfortunately may have the right idea (in my opinion), but has done a very poor job communicating that idea and keeping it on the forefront of people's minds.

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Offline Suave

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2006, 11:16:25 AM »
I think flight 93 was shot down by the jets trailing it who had permission to shoot it down.

Not that I'm complaining.

Offline ChickenHawk

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2006, 11:34:14 AM »
I would not mind seeing a documentary on flight 93 but the fact is, this movie isn't a documentary.  At the core of the movie it's not about what really happened on that flight, it's more about working up the emotions of the audience and showing them who the heroes are and making them feel good about what our government has done and is doing.  To me that’s nothing more than propaganda.

Don't get me wrong.  I feel for everyone who lost a loved one on that terrible day and I know I'm not alone when I say that I remember it like it happened yesterday and I will never forget a single detail as long as I live.  But is this movie how I want to remember them?  Eating popcorn, candy and soda and shushing the giggling teenagers and bratty kids who couldn't care less?  To me this movie is an insult to what happened that day.  I don't need some propaganda to remind me of what this country and it's citizens has been through.  I will never forget.
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Offline Eagler

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2006, 11:35:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Suave
I think flight 93 was shot down by the jets trailing it who had permission to shoot it down.

Not that I'm complaining.


was it empty and really rc'd by the cia too?

lol

we didn't land on the moon either - cause everyone knows it is made of cheese and the astronauts didn't even smell like cheese when they returned :)
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Offline ChickenHawk

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2006, 11:36:31 AM »
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Originally posted by E25280
It took, what 50+ years to win the "Cold War" against communism.


Don't look now but over a quarter of the worlds population is still communist.  And they are winning the economic war.
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Offline Hangtime

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2006, 11:47:40 AM »
The executive decided early on that we could successfuly wage war against terrorist states in the mold of 'proxy war'.. a policy that our own history has shown to be ineffective and indecisive.

The citizens of this country were not enlisted to build ships, planes, tanks.. instead they were enlisted to provide moral support for a small military force with finite capability. The press was enlisted to join the troops and show the country what they endure... the media revolted after a couple of years.

The political power base in the country squandered it's opportunity to effect a significant change in the world view of terrorist states, failed to provide the military with the resourcres required to effectively nail the lid on the insurgency.

And the executive failed to apply the lessons of sustained low order conflict losses on an american public that detests long low order conflicts.

What could we, what can we do now? As citizens are choices are finite.. support the continued 'forever war' policy of feeding american kids into the grinder in a foriegn land for indetectable and undecisive 'gains'? Continue to allow the administration to foster domestic erosion of civil liberty against what the nation sees as 'a boogyman'? As someone up therad pointed out, they have failed.. failed to secure our borders and ports.. after 5 years! Made travel an infinite procession of pains in our asses.. figuratively as well as literally, made privacy a thing of transparency.

Sad to say.. the nation that rose in wrath on december 8th 1941 in 4 short years waged a world war and clearly destroyed the forces arrayed against it.

This time.. after a second, more horrific pearl harbor than the first, two years longer than the first... we have accomplished exactly nothing significant. The executive squandered the opportunity to enlist a nation enraged to accomplish a clear necessary goal.. destroy ALL terrorist supporting states.

No Fleets. No Million Man Army. No Victory.
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Offline StarOfAfrica2

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2006, 11:55:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChickenHawk
I would not mind seeing a documentary on flight 93 but the fact is, this movie isn't a documentary.  At the core of the movie it's not about what really happened on that flight, it's more about working up the emotions of the audience and showing them who the heroes are and making them feel good about what our government has done and is doing.  To me that’s nothing more than propaganda.

Don't get me wrong.  I feel for everyone who lost a loved one on that terrible day and I know I'm not alone when I say that I remember it like it happened yesterday and I will never forget a single detail as long as I live.  But is this movie how I want to remember them?  Eating popcorn, candy and soda and shushing the giggling teenagers and bratty kids who couldn't care less?  To me this movie is an insult to what happened that day.  I don't need some propaganda to remind me of what this country and it's citizens has been through.  I will never forget.


You have a right to your feelings of course.  But, respectfully, I really dont think the families of the people who were on the plane are going to care that you are offended or insulted by it.  That is the one plane that did no harm to anyone outside, and the only ones living who should have any call to be insulted by it were all consulted and gave their approval.  If it insults you, dont see it.  If you only see it as pure propaganda, dont see it.  Simple huh?

Offline Dowding

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2006, 11:55:57 AM »
Something from Robin Cook's resignation speech as UK Foreign Secretary back in March 2003 has always struck me as pithy:

Quote
"Only a year ago, we and the United States were part of a coalition against terrorism that was wider and more diverse than I would ever have imagined possible.

History will be astonished at the diplomatic miscalculations that led so quickly to the disintegration of that powerful coalition."


Afghanistan had the backing of the entire world. Iraq was/is a stupid diversion. Cook had it right.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2006, 11:57:59 AM by Dowding »
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Offline ChickenHawk

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2006, 11:59:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
The executive decided early on that we could successfuly wage war against terrorist states in the mold of 'proxy war'.. a policy that our own history has shown to be ineffective and indecisive.

The citizens of this country were not enlisted to build ships, planes, tanks.. instead they were enlisted to provide moral support for a small military force with finite capability. The press was enlisted to join the troops and show the country what they endure... the media revolted after a couple of years.

The political power base in the country squandered it's opportunity to effect a significant change in the world view of terrorist states, failed to provide the military with the resourcres required to effectively nail the lid on the insurgency.

And the executive failed to apply the lessons of sustained low order conflict losses on an american public that detests long low order conflicts.

What could we, what can we do now? As citizens are choices are finite.. support the continued 'forever war' policy of feeding american kids into the grinder in a foriegn land for indetectable and undecisive 'gains'? Continue to allow the administration to foster domestic erosion of civil liberty against what the nation sees as 'a boogyman'? As someone up therad pointed out, they have failed.. failed to secure our borders and ports.. after 5 years! Made travel an infinite procession of pains in our asses.. figuratively as well as literally, made privacy a thing of transparency.

Sad to say.. the nation that rose in wrath on december 8th 1941 in 4 short years waged a world war and clearly destroyed the forces arrayed against it.

This time.. after a second, more horrific pearl harbor than the first, two years longer than the first... we have accomplished exactly nothing significant. The executive squandered the opportunity to enlist a nation enraged to accomplish a clear necessary goal.. destroy ALL terrorist supporting states.

No Fleets. No Million Man Army. No Victory.


I think that's one of the best summaries of post 9/11 that I've seen.  I agree 100% with your assessment.  The American public and the worlds support was there for the taking and this administration pissed it away.

Of course there are still many diehards who still have their heads in the sand.
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Offline ChickenHawk

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2006, 12:04:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
You have a right to your feelings of course.  But, respectfully, I really dont think the families of the people who were on the plane are going to care that you are offended or insulted by it.  That is the one plane that did no harm to anyone outside, and the only ones living who should have any call to be insulted by it were all consulted and gave their approval.  If it insults you, dont see it.  If you only see it as pure propaganda, dont see it.  Simple huh?


Yes, it is simple.  I won't see it, but I would not stand in anyone else’s way if they wish to see it either.  Just putting out a different opinion for people to chew on.  Nothing more.
Do not attribute to malice what can be easily explained by incompetence, fear, ignorance or stupidity, because there are millions more garden variety idiots walking around in the world than there are blackhearted Machiavellis.

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2006, 12:26:13 PM »
Why do we keep coming back to this?  Has everyone not had a chance to beat their chests and show off their intellect yet after all this time?

1.  I dont think anyone on this board disputes that for all the reasons we had for invading Iraq, none of them panned out.  It was stupid.  It wasted resources and lives and should never have been.

2.  Wishing for "what if" scenarios ranks right up there with watching Mary Poppins for passing the time.  Not only is it pure fantasy, its rather naive fantasy at that.  We have the situation we have.  No amount of finger pointing is going to make it go away, nor is any amount of what-if playing.  

3.  Nobody is asking any of us for opinions on how to fight the war.  So hijacking threads trying to get your ideas out there wont get them heard any more than starting your own thread.  Take Iraq somewhere else ok?  This isnt a movie about the war in Iraq.  This isnt a thread about how this movie impacts the war in Iraq.  Put your ideas in the proper place for proper discussion.

Thanks

Offline Mustaine

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A letter for critics of United 93
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2006, 12:29:03 PM »
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
1.  I dont think anyone on this board disputes that for all the reasons we had for invading Iraq, none of them panned out.  It was stupid.  It wasted resources and lives and should never have been.
we keep coming back because people like myself completely disagree with your above statement. utterly and completely disagree, and think it is foolish to think iraq was just fine and dandy.
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