Okay, enough about guns and capital punishment. Let's talk about the future ...

[blur]

Genetic manipulation, like any tool can be used positively or negatively.  What worries me is not the tool but the person using it.
As any Buddhist, Hindu, New Ager, etc. will tell you, true intelligence and wisdom only comes about when both mind and heart are balanced.

I work for a biotech company and I've never seen these qualities in any PHD or research scientist. All the ones I've seen potato themselves for money and stock options. I suppose they really aren't true scientists at all.

If an animal researcher were suddenly filled with love and compassion they'd recoil in horror at the pain and suffering they were inflicting on living creatures. A scientist only operating on his intellectual side is like an unguided missile capable of great mischief.

The couple that genetically engineered a fetus so that it could be used to supply bodily material for it's sick older sister committed a direct violation of life itself, an abomination, worse than the Frankenstein story in my opinion.

A child is supposed to be the physical manifestation of the love of two people. A human being is NOT to be treated as a machine to serve others. I really find this horrifying and a good example of science gone bad.

[Dinger]

Technological advance does not necessarily imply the social, moral or even material progress of human society.
Things are not getting better.

On the other hand, I'm sick of people and politicians making decisions based on the fear of something they don't understand.

(though genetically engineered crops could help out considerably with world starvation, that's not always how it works out).

[-sudz-]

I'm not so sure genetic engineering isn't itself a product of evolution.  How else is nature going to send its DNA packages off this rock (Earth) and spread around the universe unless it produces a species that is capable of spaceflight.  Humans may not be the species for this but we may be the ones who create it.  That's one take on it.

Another is that GE may be the stepping stone to crack the totipotency problem (the process whereby undifferentiated cells become specialized - i.e. eyes, skin, heart cells, etc).  If we can solve this then we'll be able to grow organs rather than clones and avoid alot of the moral and ethical issues.

-sudz-

[Gunthr]

Interesting thoughts and perspective, sudz. <S>
What follows is the latest work done on the human genome:

"DNA: C code
For many years molecular biologists have been mystified by the fact that very little of an organism's DNA seems to serve any useful function.
I have solved the mystery.

The reason why only 30% of human DNA performs any useful function is that the rest of it is comments.

Once we decode a typical human genome, we see that the contents begin as follows:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


     /* HUMAN_DNA.H
      *
      * Human Genome
      * Version 2.1
      *
      * (C) God
      */
     
     /* Revision history:
      *
      * 0000-00-01 00:00  1.0  Adam.
      * 0000-00-02 10:00  1.1  Eve.
      * 0000-00-03 02:11  1.2  Added noodle code to male version. A bit messy --
      *                        will require a rewrite later on to make it neater.
      * 0017-03-12 03:14  1.3  Added extra sex drive to male.h; took code from
      *                        elephant-dna.c
      * 0145-10-03 16:33  1.4  Removed tail.
      * 1115-00-31 17:20  1.5  Shortened forearms, expanded brain case.
      * 2091-08-20 13:56  1.6  Opposable thumbs added to hand() routine.
      * 2501-04-09 14:04  1.7  Minor cosmetic improvements -- skin colour made
      *                        darker to match my own image.
      * 2909-07-12 02:21  1.8  Dentition inadequate; added extra 'wisdom' teeth.
      *                        Must remember to make mouth bigger to compensate.
      * 4501-12-31 14:18  1.9  Increase average height.
      * 5533-02-12 17:09  2.0  Added gay option, triggered by high population
      *                        density, to try and slow the overpopulation problem.
      * 6004-11-04 16:11  2.1  Made forefinger narrower to fit hole in centre of
      *                        CD.
      */
     
     /* Standard definitions
      */
     
     #define SEX male
     #define HEIGHT 1.84
     #define MASS 68
     #define RACE caucasian
     
     /* Include inherited traits from parent DNA files.
      *
      * Files must be pre-processed with MENDEL program to provide proper
      * inheritance features.
      */
     
     #include "mother.h"
     #include "father.h"
     
     #infndef FATHER
     #warn("Father unknown -- guessing\n")
     #include "bastard.h"
     #endif
     
     /* Set up sex-specific functions and variables
      */
     #include <sex.h>
     
     /* Kludged code -- I'll re-design this lot and re-write it as a proper
      * library sometime soon.
      */
     struct genitals
        {
     #ifdef MALE
        noodle *jt;
     #endif
        /* G_spot *g;   Removed for debugging purposes */
     #ifdef FEMALE
        Vagina *p;
     #endif
        }
     
     /* Initialization bootstrap routine -- called before DNA duplication.
      * Allocates buffers and sets up protein file pointers
      */
     DNA *zygote_initialize(Sperm *, Ovum *);
     
     /* MAIN INITIALIZATION CODE
      *
      * Returns structures containing pre-processed phenotypes for the organism
      * to display at birth.
      *
      * Will be improved later to make output less ugly.
      */
     Characteristic *lookup_phenotype(Identifier *i);

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...and so on.
[ Note that God uses three-space tabs ] "

[Udie]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:
I have a fetus in a lab right now, a clone of me.

Will use it to repair worn parts of me as I grow older.

 

 But what do you use to replace the mouth on your clone?  

 j/k  


Udie

[StSanta]

LOL gunthr

I one tab, btw  .

Udie   PTFFFH!  

------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Maverick]

Just a thought here. I figure everything we eat as well as all of the domesticated animals around are a product of genetic engineering. It started when people started to breed plants and animals for desired traits.

In a mild form it applies to people as well. Look at some of the photos and traits from the "old times". People were smaller, less inclined to worry about "personal beauty" and more interested in if they can help support their mate and survive. Now we look to personal appearance first and actual traits later.

Finally I thought I heard that Gore invented genes or his dog had buried Al's in the yard somewhere. Perhaps a book on genes was modeled after Al and Tipper.    


Mav

[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 10-22-2000).]

[blur]

 

Originally posted by Maverick:
Just a thought here. I figure everything we eat as well as all of the domesticated animals around are a product of genetic engineering. It started when people started to breed plants and animals for desired traits.
<snip>

Glad you brought this up as this is the argument used by scientists to defend genetic engineering. Yes, horses cattle, dogs and people have been genetically altered over the years. The difference is that this was done "externally" through mating. Done in this way the two genetic "blueprints" would determine compatibility through combining or not. In genetic engineering it's the blueprint itself that's being altered, BIG difference.

Quite frankly there's only one person I want messing with my "blueprint" and that's the original designer.  

[leonid]

WRT nanotechnology, I heard that they've already made a molecular-sized engine prototype, saw the article in Scientific American.  Very basic, but at this point it works.

[Igloo]

I'm totally for the engineering of human parts for medical purposes. Growing a heart, for example, so a man can have a transplant.  

What I am not for, is genetically engineering people for medical purposes.  In my opinion, this is absolutly the same as slavery.  And the sad thing is that people are actually debating whether or not this is ethical.  

Cloning, no problem with it as long as that "clone" is given all the rights any other human being has.  It is only a physical clone, what makes up the person inside is not genetic.  Sure, genetic tendencies may be there, but they still retain their individuality.  Genetic clones are no different than identical twins.

The only problem with this is when people feed their egos into believing that "non-clones"  have less rights and that clones should be used in service of "real people". Of course, ignorance is always involved in these circumstances, so education is key.

------------------
Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York

"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]

[Maverick]

 

Originally posted by Igloo:
I'm totally for the engineering of human parts for medical purposes. Growing a heart, for example, so a man can have a transplant.

 

I have no problem with this. My father might have lived past my 7th bday if this had been available. Plenty of people who need parts now to survive.


What I am not for, is genetically engineering people for medical purposes.  In my opinion, this is absolutely the same as slavery.  And the sad thing is that people are actually debating whether or not this is ethical.  
[/QUOTE]

I don't understand this one. What is meant by medical purposes? If you mean that making "repairs" genetically to stop people from suffering from things like cancer or arthritis is not good, I definitely have a problem with this. I think that people should be able to regrow nerves, limbs and overcome disabilities through the use of gene work.

I disagree that you should be able to "pick" traits for children like gender, hair / eye color. You should be able to help change things like mental retardation and mongoloidism(sp?) is at all possible. No one should have to be trapped in a dysfunctional body / mind only because of a faulty gene that could have been fixed.

Mav

[Dowding]

Mav - Mongoloidism is Down's Syndrome (I think).

Alot of people are against eliminating this disease - I can't understand them at all. We eliminated small pox from most of the world, but genetic diseases are somehow seen as 'God's will', and as such should not be interfered with.

What happens if you don't believe in God?

[StSanta]

I bet in a ew years yer gonna be considered an old fart for not accepting parents right to choose the colour of eyes, hair etc of their offspring.

Hell, they're their belongings (or at least are treated as such even now until they reach adult age)    .

Just an observation based on previous breakthroughs.

Me, I'm just in it for the ride, baby. Whatever comes along, comes along. Won't make me dumber or smarter (in the case of parents getting ultra smart blue eyed blonde babies) and probably won't make me sad.

What worries me is  the division such a thing might create. Between natural humans, which by the ruling genetically enhanced population is considered dumb, obsolete, flawed and generally inferior, and the new genetically enhanced ones.

I've read tons of books on the subject, mostly fiction. Pretty cool stuff. If any of it has any possibility of happening, the yanks are pretty damned smart when they wanna keep their guns.

Fight the GenUmans! Nats unite! We shall be victorious.

And, we get to use this line:

"I created you. Now, I shall destroy you."

Wayyyy cool    . A purpose in life too, fighting GenUmans.

<sits next to udie, rip, Toad and caveman and watches them load clips and fix weapons>

"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed."
- Francis Bacon

------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
   

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 10-22-2000).]

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 10-22-2000).]

[Toad]

Santa,

By the time any of this really becomes a major force in world society, I'll be packing a shotgun and chasing my old labradors in the sunlit uplands of a completely different astral plane.

 

[StSanta]

Toad:

LOL

Ya never know, my friend, you never know  .

You might be the first human to live forever.

 .

------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"