Hey! Let's give the Russians some LOVE - Medium Bomber

[straffo]

Originally posted by Furball
TU-2 / PE-2

I agree with the Frenchman.

[Bombardy]

TORPEDOES AWAY!





http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/24-6-2003-9-24-ilyushin_il-4_parked_in_dispersal.jpeg

http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/24-6-2003-9-25-ilyushin_il-4s_flight.jpeg

http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/24-6-2003-9-25-ilyushin_il-4s_getting_ready_on_flight-line.jpeg

http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/24-6-2003-9-26-ilyushin_il-4s_over_mountains.jpeg

[Bad31st]

I like the idea and hope to see it implemented

[Furball]

Originally posted by straffo
I agree with the Frenchman.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Furball
TU-2 / PE-2

Nice planes...but they would just be bombers.

Bombardy makes some excellent points about the unique impact the IL-4 could have on gameplay.

A trio of IL-4s could be bombing the town, or dropping the troops....the defenders wouldnt know which. Imagine how fun it would be to play a shell game, with an IL-4 mission of >6 bombers sets with ONE of them having paratroopers.....which one? Or single planes converging from 3 different angles, having randomly mixed loadouts.....

I think it would add another layer to a capture/strategic game thats been skewed with the more crowded arena.

I'm all for it!

[Hap]

what has HQ said about new aircraft being added?  

hap

[Sakai]

Originally posted by Hap
what has HQ said about new aircraft being added?  

hap

You wanna know?

Wait for it . . .








Two weeks.

Sakai

[Treize69]

I'd hit that.... with about a 3 second burst of 20mm, hehe

WE NEED MORE EASTERN FRONT RIDES!

[Krusty]

I think I might eventually want the IL4, but it would be like the Do17Z, obsolete before the war began. It would literally be a sitting duck, in every sense of the word. The idea of having a bomber that can take bombrs OR cargo OR troops is an intriquing one, one that I suggested some time back with the 4-engines fixed-gear soviet bomber (I've forgotten the designation of it, the one they used for the Sveno setup).

You could "hide" a goon inside a formation of actual bombers, and so forth. It would present an interesting strategy. That, and it would be an armed goon!

I would like to see the IL4 eventually, but I think a better "early war" soviet bomber might be the SB-2 or for mid war the Pe-2. I don't know if the Pe had a level bombsight or not, though. I don't think it did.

The fact of the matter is that most soviet bombers were for close air support, which means most of their attack craft were light, and dove on targets to hit them. You won't find many russian planes from ww2 with bombsights in 'em.

I think of the Soviet bombers, we should have the Pe2, the Tu2, and then the SB2/IL4 (either/or)

[Treize69]

I think the Pe was like the Mossie, only certain versions had the bombsight.

The Il4 might not be so bad, as long as you keep in mind that its meant to fill in the early war planeset, where it would only historically be up against the Bf109E and F (and the Romanian HurriIs if there was a Black Sea setup). No gondies, no 30mm, no 400mph speedfreaks. Not even really any 190s for the most part. If they made the version with the belly gunner position, it would even be more survivable than the Havocs they currently are forced to use in the level bomber role. Not as fast, but better armed.

[Bombardy]

BUZZZZZ!


The IL-4 like the Do17Z, obsolete before the war began?

Bullhocky  (not sure if that is even a word)

IL-4 was plenty fast, and quite capable of long range flights. It did often take part in close in support so to speak, loading up 3000Kg of bombs to hit behind the front lines

The IL-4 was versitile and used extensively and very capable aircraft - and definately not a "early war" type only plane, the russians continued to use it even after WW2!

here's a really interesting aspect of the IL-4

the Il4 was used extensively in anti-shipping operations in the baltic sea throughout the war, and could carry three torpedos each around 1000kg

*or*

a single 2000kg torpedo that was a high-alt torpedo that was droped from any altitude out infront of ships and would float down with a parachute. once it hit the water it would activate and travel in large circles in the water. A very ingenious method that worked very well in tests but in practical useage didn't really yield the expected results, either way imagine it would be a new and interesting way to attack cv's !!


it's not super uber, but a late war IL-4 would have 3 12.7mm machine guns for defense and a very versitile load out including an optional external fuel tank

compare it to the Ju88.....it doesn't have the same load out but the defensive armament is probably a little better, IL-4 is a little faster and HEY it's russian!

shame on you for not agreeing with ME!!!

[Krusty]

TIME Life has this to say about the IL4:

"ILYUSHIN IL-4/DB-3F (1938)
The first Soviet plane to bomb Berlin, in 1941, the twin-engined Il-4 medium bomber could deliver a 2,204-pound payload to a target almost 1,200 miles away. But it quickly became obsolescent because of its slow (277mph) speed and weak (only three machine guns) defensive armament. Many Il-4s were refitted to carry a one-ton aerial torpedo or a sea mine."

[Sakai]

Originally posted by Krusty
I think I might eventually want the IL4, but it would be like the Do17Z, obsolete before the war began.

I think a better "early war" soviet bomber might be the SB-2 or for mid war the Pe-2. I don't know if the Pe had a level bombsight or not, though. I don't think it did.

The fact of the matter is that most soviet bombers were for close air support, which means most of their attack craft were light, and dove on targets to hit them. You won't find many russian planes from ww2 with bombsights in 'em.

Well, you are spot on regarding the use of bombers by the Soviets, and for that matter the Jerries, on that front.  After Britain, Germany seemingly had no stomach for sustained, strategic bombing and the Soviets were not going to project such forces across half their territory and deep into Germany.

However, asking for the SB-2 over the Il-4 is curious.  The Il-4 was more widely used and a far better plane.  

The Il-4 was a capable plane, and like the SM-79, Ju-52, SM-81 and most Flying Boats could fulfill multiple roles.  In all the early posts on the H8K the capability to fly in supplies, troops or to bomb was offered up as I recall.

The GM-3, Do-17, He-111, Il-4, SM-79 etc. might not be uber arena planes, but if TOD is to have any sustained success we need such aircraft as well as the early war fighters.  The LaGG-3, as an example, should not be too difficult to model being as the airframe and cockpit were (in the majority of those built) the same as the La-5 (as I recall).  And surely SM-79s have a shot against Gloster Gladiators and Hurricane Mk Is?  Is the 109e really too much plane for an Il-4?  Is the G6?  I doubt it.

The Il-4 is a far better plane than is the Kate or Val or SBD or Stuka yet we have all those and why cant we send a guy up with a box of four to six mediums?   Say, all early war craft get 6, but planes like the B-26 up get only 4 or 3?

Also, the Pe-2 was delivered to units starting in 1941--no midwar plane that.  It would be the best soviet bomber in terms of the hamster whee . . . errrr arena, sorry, but the Il-4 was their best, widely deployed homegrown level bomber of the war.  Their best bomber was probably the A-20 wasn't it?

Sakai

[Krusty]

As a side note the first Pe-2s started showing up in 1941 but it wasn't around in great strength until '42/'43 if I recall. There were some version changes and then the production was ramped up. I think that's how it went.

[Sakai]

Originally posted by Krusty
As a side note the first Pe-2s started showing up in 1941 but it wasn't around in great strength until '42/'43 if I recall. There were some version changes and then the production was ramped up. I think that's how it went.

It was flying in 1939 and the Soviets switched its role to tactical bomber after seeing what Hitler and Company did, given Petylyakov and crew like a month or so to revamp it or else.  It was reflown prior to 1941 and entered service in Spring 1941.

The entire Red Air Force was a shambles at that time and regrouped in 1942 but that plane was swinging and bombing in Spring 1941.  The numbers gig has to do with relocating the manufacturing plant, not with development/deployment issues.  The problems with that plane were tweaked out during its use, as with any other aircraft.  

It was a frontline, integral part of their airforce in 1941.  There were more planes of other types around; but here's a corollary: the Main Japanese fighter type in terms of units equipped on December 7, 1941 as I recall was the Ki-27 Claude.  So I guess modeling the Zeke was silly?

Also, like 11,000 of these flew.  That's a bum load.  The Pe-2 is simply a "must have" plane in terms of its importance.  

The SB-2/3 series, by the way, would make great Spanish Civil War arena planes and early war eastern front machines.  

;-)

Sakai