Bush Weighs Deploying Guard to U.S. Border

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Also known as:  France

This would be the same France that lost 562,000 people during WWII.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by Jackal1
Hockey pucks!
"The Land Of The Free" refers to those of us who legally live here........the citizens. Our military is the very reason we are the land of the free. Our military has, and will continue to, protect and preserve that. Without them we would be the "Land Of The Pushover".

Wrong.  WE are the reason we can call ourselves free.  When the day finally comes that we must rely on only our military to secure our borders and secure US in our homes THEN you can call us the "Land of the Pushovers".  And while we may be nearly there, hopefully we wont reach that low point in my lifetime.  

Securing basic freedoms:  Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness; those are the responsibility of every citizen.  Not the US Military.  It is up to us to do our part every day to continue to protect and preserve that, not the job of the military.  Their job is to fight other armies.  This is a job for law enforcement.  Something that up to this point has been nearly ignored.  

It is specifically NOT the job of the military to perform police actions inside the borders of the US.  This isnt the first time Bush has pushed to do this.  Most likely his intentions are good, but establishing the precedent is BAD.  Our troops have enough problems to deal with right now without deploying them along the border to defend us against starving Mexicans and drug dealers.

Fund the Border Patrol and staff it as it should be staffed.  Give them the equipment they need to do the job.  Enforce the laws that are on the books as they should be.  Involve citizens by making them understand their civic duty.  Hell, provide rewards for turning in people who employ illegals.  There is plenty of precedent for that sort of thing.  

We've had years of the govt. glossing over the problem or sweeping it under a rug.  They dont think its a big deal until politics forces them to.  Popluar media constantly gives the sympathetic view, reinforcing the public idea that it's not a major crime.  You cant change everyone's POV overnight, but you have to.  Nothing they do will make any difference if the people who live around the borders arent involved.  Attitudes need to be adjusted and POV changed from top to bottom.  Once that happens (if it happens) you will see drastic change in how porous our borders are without a single soldier being posted out there.

I admire and respect anyone that volunteers to wear the uniform of any branch of the US military.  Any man or woman who puts themselves in harms way to defend others.  But I'll be damned if I'll rely on them to defend me in my own home.  Thats my job, not the governments.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Sandman
At last... the real point behind this emerges. Illegal immigrants.



Here's my "agenda". I wonder how effective the Border Patrol could be if they had just a fraction of the money spent in Iraq.

As for the arrest of employers. Good luck with that. In order to convict, the state must prove beyond reasonable doubt that the employers knowingly hired illegal aliens.

Anytime I've ever gotten a job (other than construction), I've had to show proof of citizenship ie....drivers liscence, social security card. Those same companies have also photocopied my ID's to put in my personell records.

If a company doesnt do those things doesnt that make them negligent and therefor guilty?

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Elfie
Anytime I've ever gotten a job (other than construction), I've had to show proof of citizenship ie....drivers liscence, social security card. Those same companies have also photocopied my ID's to put in my personell records.

If a company doesnt do those things doesnt that make them negligent and therefor guilty?

It certainly does. But if someone uses fake IDs, is the employer at fault?

[Elfie]

Isnt using a fake ID yet another crime?

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Elfie
Isnt using a fake ID yet another crime?

Probably.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Wrong.  WE are the reason we can call ourselves free.  When the day finally comes that we must rely on only our military to secure our borders and secure US in our homes THEN you can call us the "Land of the Pushovers".  And while we may be nearly there, hopefully we wont reach that low point in my lifetime.  

Securing basic freedoms:  Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness; those are the responsibility of every citizen.  Not the US Military.  It is up to us to do our part every day to continue to protect and preserve that, not the job of the military.  Their job is to fight other armies.  This is a job for law enforcement.  Something that up to this point has been nearly ignored.  

It is specifically NOT the job of the military to perform police actions inside the borders of the US.  This isnt the first time Bush has pushed to do this.  Most likely his intentions are good, but establishing the precedent is BAD.  Our troops have enough problems to deal with right now without deploying them along the border to defend us against starving Mexicans and drug dealers.

Fund the Border Patrol and staff it as it should be staffed.  Give them the equipment they need to do the job.  Enforce the laws that are on the books as they should be.  Involve citizens by making them understand their civic duty.  Hell, provide rewards for turning in people who employ illegals.  There is plenty of precedent for that sort of thing.  

We've had years of the govt. glossing over the problem or sweeping it under a rug.  They dont think its a big deal until politics forces them to.  Popluar media constantly gives the sympathetic view, reinforcing the public idea that it's not a major crime.  You cant change everyone's POV overnight, but you have to.  Nothing they do will make any difference if the people who live around the borders arent involved.  Attitudes need to be adjusted and POV changed from top to bottom.  Once that happens (if it happens) you will see drastic change in how porous our borders are without a single soldier being posted out there.

I admire and respect anyone that volunteers to wear the uniform of any branch of the US military.  Any man or woman who puts themselves in harms way to defend others.  But I'll be damned if I'll rely on them to defend me in my own home.  Thats my job, not the governments.

Agreed. I've long held that an American Soldier, armed and on patrol on the streets of a war-torn forigen country, doing the dirty duty is a Hero. The same soldier, armed and on patrol inside our own country is a symbol of government tyranny.

OTOH, there's a role for the military in protecting our borders. A big portion of military capability revolves around employment of survelience technology.. Identify, Classify, Report. We can certainly use their help.. and actual interdiction, arrest and detainment can be handled by Border Patrol. The recent incursions of armed elements that appear to be corrupt mexican military units in the areas adjecent to and over our borders are a clear indication that a corresponding American Military Overwatch and Survelience Mission should certainly be mounted ASAP.

I don't favor the physical fence and troops in foxholes approach... but we can sure quickly increase the number of succesful interceptions and staunch the flow quite a bit by using the Military's JSTAR, RPV and remote sensor systems in support of the Border Patrol...

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Sandman
Probably.

Last I heard it was a crime, which would make the employer a victim of a crime. Unless the fake ID was done so horribly that even a blind man could see it was fake, the employer shouldnt be held liable imo.

[Elfie]

The recent incursions of armed elements that appear to be corrupt mexican military units in the areas adjecent to and over our borders

M1 Abrams and Bradley AFV's positioned just on our side of the border would stop those incursions by the Mexican military imo.

The Mexican army crossing our borders is an act of war imo and needs to be stopped asap.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Elfie
Last I heard it was a crime, which would make the employer a victim of a crime. Unless the fake ID was done so horribly that even a blind man could see it was fake, the employer shouldnt be held liable imo.

I don't see the employer as a victim in this case. He paid a wage and got a job done. Simple as that.  He deducted taxes from the wage and paid the government.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Elfie
M1 Abrams and Bradley AFV's positioned just on our side of the border would stop those incursions by the Mexican military imo.

The Mexican army crossing our borders is an act of war imo and needs to be stopped asap.

Nope. No armed surface force is required.

Overwatch can detect the presence of any vehicle within 10 miles of the border.. if anything looking like a potential crossing attempt develops; the tones are transmitted, the location and threat sent to the Border Patrol and State Police.. and support Air elements scrambled..

The apperance within a few minutes of a covey of Apache helicopters.. hovering menacingly 6" inside our border with orders to respond with overwhelming force to the first shot at either them or the Border Patrol units sent to the treat scene will send a very powerful message to the coyotes, drug smugglers or anybody else foolish enought to think we won't defend American Soil..

[x0847Marine]

Operation Tampon "Stopping the flow"

Actually Hangtime, State sworn police do not get involved in Federal immigration enforcement as a rule, a nearby CHP officer will chase em in their car, wave "welcome to America" if on foot.

[Hangtime]

[Shamus]

Originally posted by Elfie
Last I heard it was a crime, which would make the employer a victim of a crime. Unless the fake ID was done so horribly that even a blind man could see it was fake, the employer shouldnt be held liable imo.

A $10.00 private data base search would weed out 98% of the fake SS cards, and a half hour of work by a reasonably competent HR person would uncover the other 2%.

shamus

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Wrong.  WE are the reason we can call ourselves free.  When the day finally comes that we must rely on only our military to secure our borders and secure US in our homes THEN you can call us the "Land of the Pushovers".  

Securing us in our borders and securing us in our homes is EXACTLY what our troops are doing in Irag , Afghanistan, etc.
BTW.....The U.S. Border Patrol is a government agency, now a part of Homeland Security, so anyway you cut it it is Government troops of one form or another.

It is specifically NOT the job of the military to perform police actions inside the borders of the US.

When it comes to national security and protecting the very fabric of our nation it no longer is a "police action". That`s exactly the point it has reached. We have a big problem here. A national problem, not just the border states.

Fund the Border Patrol and staff it as it should be staffed.  Give them the equipment they need to do the job.  Enforce the laws that are on the books as they should be.

Agreed, but until they are brought up to specs and to date we can use all the help we can get.