Mosq's Sustained Turn List v 2.07

[Widewing]

Originally posted by MOSQ
WW,

Thanks for posting your tests. It of course sent me back to the experimental test facility.

At first I couldn't match your numbers. I turned combat trim on, and it made my numbers worse.

Then I tried pulling the circles with the plane in full shake. In my testing before I had pulled until the plane just started to shake, then backed off a tiny till it stopped. I kept the plane right on the edge of starting to shake, then back off. I did this because HTC had posted in another thread when the new shake was added to the game that once the plane starts shaking, the plane is losing lift.

However that is not the case. By flying with the plane in full shake I was able to match or exceed all your posted numbers. Then I turned CT off again and did even better. For example my new Spit 5 test was 98 mph in 49.8 seconds.

I also watched the G-Meter and saw that in full shake the G's don't decrease until you pull past full shake and the plane really does lose lift.

I don't believe it will change the rank order since I tested all the planes with the same consistent way.  Even if a few planes did better in the full shake test than others, I doubt it would change their overall rank by more than a plane or two.

I'm glad I've learned how to maximize my turn rate, I'm just not sure if it's worth going back and retesting al the planes if the rank order doesn't change. Maybe I'll test the top 15 of them and see if there are any rank changes....

Thanks again for your feedback.

Generally, I will fly just about everything deep into stall buffet. Inasmuch as I spend a great deal of time in the TA, I have an enormous amount of stick time flying most fighters right to the edge and holding them there. Generally, one develops some "methods" to push a fighter beyond its limits long enough to change fortunes in a dogfight.

Based upon my testing and actual fighting, I believe that the N1K2-J is the best over-all dogfighter in the current plane-set, with the 109F-4 ranking in the top 5 (but lacking in firepower).

My regards,

Widewing

[Urchin]

No way, Ki-84 all the way.  

Best knife fighter in the whole world .  

I dunno, I'll have to give the Niki another try I guess.  I flew it the last couple tours in AH 1 and I'd tear stuff up in it, I loved that plane.  When AH2 came out it felt like it had been nuetered, so I didn't fly it as much.  

Maybe it is dominant again, we'll find out I guess.

[Urchin]

Would the Spit 14 turn better to the right than the left (because of the Griffon engine)?  

Maybe that is why it had such a poor showing compared to the Spit 16.. it weighs the same but has more horsepower.. so shouldn't it turn better?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Urchin
No way, Ki-84 all the way.  

Best knife fighter in the whole world .  

I dunno, I'll have to give the Niki another try I guess.  I flew it the last couple tours in AH 1 and I'd tear stuff up in it, I loved that plane.  When AH2 came out it felt like it had been nuetered, so I didn't fly it as much.  

Maybe it is dominant again, we'll find out I guess.

From what I've been able to determine, the Niki received a big boost in low speed performance while the Ki-84 took a significant hit. Prior to 2.07, the Ki-84 was superior at stall fighting, but that has changed with the update.

As it is now, the Ki-84 can barely match the 109F-4, flaps out and is at a slight disadvantage because the 109 can get its flaps out sooner (at higher speeds). It suffers the same disadvantage against the Niki, but the Niki is even better than the 109F-4, and those four cannon really up the ante.

My regards,

Widewing

[MOSQ]

Originally posted by culero
Mosq, I looked at several planes in both sorts of your list and noted they have different numbers listed for turn radius in the sorted-by-TR-ascending and sorted-by-name-alphabetically lists. Why is that?

culero

Culero,

Thanks for catching that. The reason is I cut and pasted from an Excel spreadsheet. In between events I updated the the fractional formula for converting MPH to Feet/second then calculating the radius. I added a few extra decimal places to the formula.

I'll update the whole thing tonight and get it right. I guess that's why professional writers have an editor!

I'm also testing the first 15 planes to see if the rank order changes given WideWings testing.

Thanks Again,

Mosq

[MOSQ]

WideWing and Urchin,

I'll test the Spit 14 and see if it does better to the right.

I agree with WideWing. I've flown the Ki-84 for over a year as my 95% time ride. I used to be able to full flaps slow turn with Spit 5's no problem if I survived long enough to get my flaps out. Niki's were a feeding frenzy. I don't think I'd lost a fight with a Niki in a year that was 1v1. Then shortly after the patch a Niki in a slow spiral up full flaps turn fight clearly kicked my prettythang.  I was so astonished I PM'd the pilot with a hearty congratulations.

Now I know why he beat me, the Ki-84 took a huge hit in full flaps performance. I guess it makes sense, the Ki-84 and Niki weigh the same and have the same horsepower, but the Niki has a larger wing area.

Dang!

There's more to the new drag model than just turn rate and flaps. It's also affected acceleration times.

Not so much for the slow planes, there it's minor. But the planes capable of 340 + have been affected.

I'm at work now and have no access to my test data, but as I recall the F4U1C now takes 13 seconds longer to get from 300 to 350 than it it did before 2.07. The Tempest was affected but not as much.

When I get home and go through my data I'll post the significant changes I've seen in acceleration so far.

[DoKGonZo]

Something seems askew with a 110C out-turning a Spit9.

But the obvious conclusion here is: Perk the Val!

[MOSQ]

I've retested the top 26 turners in full shake mode. There were two major changes: The Spit 5 and the Niki moved way up. The rest pretty much remained the same. I'll have the complete list redone in a couple of days.

[Angus]

"Would the Spit 14 turn better to the right than the left (because of the Griffon engine)?

Maybe that is why it had such a poor showing compared to the Spit 16.. it weighs the same but has more horsepower.. so shouldn't it turn better?"

The 14 was reported to turn equally to a Mk IX, - full span.

[MOSQ]

I have revised the list. I tested all the planes in full shake buffet.

The Spit 5 moved up and the Jugs did a little better. The Yak 9 improved a bit.

I tested the 109F4, NIK2J, and F4U1-D at 25%, 50 % and 75% fuel loads. Also the Niki at 99%.

I took out the No Flaps test. It was interesting as an academic exercise, but had no real use in the game. After all, if you're in a full shake stall buffet, you'll be hitting the flaps, not shaking along with no flaps out.

And I also deleted the alphabetical list, at least for now. I was having trouble with Excel making it do what I wanted.

The Spit 14 turned the same to the left or right.

Mosq"s Revised Turn List

Mosq/Hells Angels

[Nemeth]

So is this list just for all around dogfighting, or overall turning??

I've read somewhere that the only WWII fighter that can out turn a Spitfire Mk.1a/b (Mk.1a is the one used in AH) was a KI 34 (pretty sure its this one)

[MOSQ]

Originally posted by Nemeth
So is this list just for all around dogfighting, or overall turning??

I've read somewhere that the only WWII fighter that can out turn a Spitfire Mk.1a/b (Mk.1a is the one used in AH) was a KI 34 (pretty sure its this one)

Best sustained turn. Not best dogfighter. Trying to determine the best dogfighter is a totally subjective "test". It depends on pilot preference and is a source of constant debate on these boards.

For instance the Val (D3A) has the best turn radius and an excellent turn rate, but no one would call it a dogfighter.

Although I do have a couple of kills in the Val. But it's more of a Zen experience than a dogfight.

[Tilt]

I have to say that after many years playing AH this list has just totally changed my  game tactics...................... ..

In an La7 I would never ...ever have considered it wise to stall fight a competently piloted P38 and yet according to the above (with only a slight initial advantage) its very doable.............. and it turns out to be true.

I had never put much faith in (non fowler) flaps as turning aids     ... I was wrong.

However now my JS program is  modified and the thumb slider is banded such that flaps can be notched down/up one step at a time or simply auto lowered as my speed drops ...and of course they auto raise as my speed increases............... my La7flaps  are total "fly by wire".

I have removed trim controls from my thumb wheels and returned to using the auto trim work around by simply switching CT on/off.......more "fly by wire" I may even program the CT toggle button to become a "retrim" button. I mean its such a pain having to press the damn thing twice!


btw please leave the flap/no flap comparison in......it was really useful to see the trun rate gain and how it shunts stuff about. e.g I now find my self looking at my opponent to see if he has flaps down or not...this clues me for stuff

a) he is making a mistake
b) he is faster than i thought
c) he is about to try to run for it
d) right now I am turning better/worse than he is

[MOSQ]

Tilt,

Thanks for the feedback, I'm glad you've found it helpful.

Per your request I've combined the No Flaps with the Full Flaps list.

Click Here:

Mosq's Revised Sustained Turn List

I think there's a minor typo or two in it I need to fix, but this is good for now.

I'll probably redo it with an alphabetical sort in a week or two.

[DoKGonZo]

It's interesting stuff. Made me rethink my use of certain planes once I saw how bad they turned.

Was surprised that the Yak gains less from flaps than the La's. And that the La-7 slightly out-turns the La-7. I expected the other way around.

I'm a little suspect of how easy these planes are to fly at 90mph with flaps down full and banked over 80+ degrees.