Author Topic: Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??  (Read 1089 times)

Offline Sparks

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 804
Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2006, 03:00:30 PM »
Hang, it's a bit off topic but Corporate Europe basically ignores borders other than for tax purposes.  The early expansion of the EU very conveniently opened up a huge low pay / high skill  workforce at a time when competition with China was and is ramping up. Major Corporations are basically no longer nationally based (e.g. Shell, EADS, Thales etc etc). Banking is now Europe wide. In the immigration debate they couldn't care less as long as low pay workers are released into the system to fuel pressure on lowering pay / benefits etc.  Certainly corporations pull the economic strings that make politicians move. The figures speak for themselves ... while the government in the UK hits headlines for a £500 million[/b] deficit in the National Heath Service BP announce a £19 BILLION[/b] profit (less than Shell btw but they are dutch) and EADS runs 553 million Euro profit on 6.9 Billion turnover ......... you tell me where the power is.

Straffo - interesting you label GWB's speech as racist and nationalist while France is one of the prime movers in keeping it's national identity intact - even to the level of insisting other EU nations fund the maintenanace of French cultural identity ??  So what is assimilation while keeping external cultures intact ?

Replicant / Boroda, absolutely within a nation there are cultural differences but I would argue they are a part of the national identity not contrary to it and in conflict with it and others while trying to coexist ??

Offline Banzzai

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 227
Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2006, 03:03:12 PM »
Quote
I believe if a european had said this in public (certainly in the UK) he/she would have been branded a nationalist racist.


over here in Holland there was one "Pym Fortuin"

He was the one that really started the dutch talking about immigration/intergration,
He was on the way to becoming the next prime minister till he got assasinated

The goverment of Holland has (due to popular demand) implemented a
strong Immigration/Intergration policy
up to the point where a member of parliment has been stripped of her nationality
for lying on her application for dutch citizenship (she's on her way to america YOUR welcome to her).


As a Brit living in Holland i'm all for it I chose to live in Holland so I should be the one
 to intergate into the Dutch Culture,
and if the dutch don't think i'm doing enough then they have the right to kick me out.

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2006, 03:38:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sparks
Hang, it's a bit off topic but Corporate Europe basically ignores borders other than for tax purposes.  The early expansion of the EU very conveniently opened up a huge low pay / high skill  workforce at a time when competition with China was and is ramping up. Major Corporations are basically no longer nationally based (e.g. Shell, EADS, Thales etc etc). Banking is now Europe wide. In the immigration debate they couldn't care less as long as low pay workers are released into the system to fuel pressure on lowering pay / benefits etc.  Certainly corporations pull the economic strings that make politicians move. The figures speak for themselves ... while the government in the UK hits headlines for a £500 million deficit in the National Heath Service BP announce a £19 BILLION[/b] profit (less than Shell btw but they are dutch) and EADS runs 553 million Euro profit on 6.9 Billion turnover ......... you tell me where the power is.

 [/B]


LOL! thanks, Sparks! I suspected as much; wasn't sure if you folks saw the same BS corporate playbook in operation we're seeing here. My guess.. inside 50 years we'll see corporations emerge from behind the skirts of the national politicians they control and the end of 'nationalisim'.

Looks like we're all in this together... and, I don't see any way to stop it.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Nilsen

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18108
Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2006, 03:46:54 PM »
and people wonder why we stay out of the EU..

.. and just as many wonder why we do..



Personally it would not affect me either way ( my workforce is, and will always be norwegian until we close down in 2013)

My next job (already started) will work good both ways.


If i think ouside my own sphere then the EU is bad for the present norwegian lifestyle, but ___perhaps___ good in the long run. Ill be dead by that time, but my daughter and grandkids (if  she gets any) will know.


Yes... i have positioned myself in a way that will ensure my future whatever happens. Im hoping that my taxes and votes gets me what i want for free anyway, but if it doesnt, i have funds set aside to make it happen anyway.,

Offline GtoRA2

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8339
Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2006, 04:41:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
LOL! thanks, Sparks! I suspected as much; wasn't sure if you folks saw the same BS corporate playbook in operation we're seeing here. My guess.. inside 50 years we'll see corporations emerge from behind the skirts of the national politicians they control and the end of 'nationalisim'.

Looks like we're all in this together... and, I don't see any way to stop it.


You know Hang, it is funny.

Unions gave us workers rights, and then the government made much of what they fought for federal law. Now unions in the US are dying and the American worker is being left behind for cheap labor in china and mexico.

The union protections and government ones are driving corps away. (for some legit reasons and non legit reasons depending on your point of view)

Sounds like something like that is taking place in Europe, but instead of going to china or mexica they are going to eastern europe.

It is interesting, the way worker protection laws in western nations seem to be failing because the workers they protected are being put out of work by cheap rightless workers in poor nations with no protections.

Will we see these countries unionise as time goes by?  Or will demand for their cheap work cause the prices to go up and balance things out? Or will their governments step in and try and protect their people? ( fat chance on that last one).  Or will the revolt and go Commie?

Its like most western nations have taken huge steps in workers rights, but are now throwing them away and oppressing the people in these nations that supply the cheap labor...  Kinda Ironic.

Interesting thread though.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2006, 04:45:51 PM by GtoRA2 »

Offline Thud

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 476
Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2006, 01:10:43 AM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 11:07:28 AM by Skuzzy »

Offline asilvia

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 175
Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2006, 02:59:41 AM »
Which countries in Europe are part of the EU and which are not? I thought the UK was part but they did not want to change thier currency to the Ecru(SP??) new Europien currency. Why is that?? I lived in Germany for 8 years and I will say the new currency hasnt gone over that well there. My in-laws still complain about it. Just a question anyways...

Offline wipass

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 470
      • http://www.secestimating.com
Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2006, 03:12:28 AM »
Integration in the UK is a dirty word, multi culturalism is the way forward according to our politicians. Although our current politicians despise England and its traditions and multi culturalism suits their aims very well.

wipass

Offline Nilsen

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18108
Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2006, 03:14:27 AM »
Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are the only countries in western europe that are outside the EU
see map:


Offline mora

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2006, 03:16:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by asilvia
I thought the UK was part but they did not want to change thier currency to the Ecru(SP??) new Europien currency. Why is that?? I lived in Germany for 8 years and I will say the new currency hasnt gone over that well there. My in-laws still complain about it. Just a question anyways...
The currency is euro. The reasons why people complain about it is because they believe it has caused inflation. In reality the reason for inflation was gouging and lack of competition.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 03:20:29 AM by mora »

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Three types of immigrant
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2006, 04:10:47 AM »
Hi Sparks!

This topic is generally not one to get me going, but having grown up in a large Midlands city with a huge immigrant population, I thought I'd throw in my 2p.

Back in the 1960s when I was at school, already a large proportion of my city was inhabited by Asians, who had started coming over just after the war. In my school, the classes were "streamed" according to ability. Even back in 1964 we had entire classes composed of Asians. Regrettably this was because they were in the bottom level having been unable to take the assessment tests because they could not speak English. In the school yard at break time, they tended to stick together. They didn't mess with us, and we didn't mess with them. They were law abiding in their communities, and there was never any trouble. Most of these were Indians, with names like Singh and Patel, and one assumes they were Hindu, not Muslim. They were a valuable asset to the community. Indeed, the Leicester Corporation bus service would have been at a standstill without them.

Things changed more recently, with another wave of immigrants who imported their culture and built mosques. Often these mosques popped up in such a way as to encroach upon established white middle class areas, much to the chagrin of the people living there, who found their house prices devalued. It seems to be this group from which "Muslim Extremism" has stemmed. There have been racial clashes, and in recent local elections, a large swathe of disaffected working class voters indigenous to Britain voted for the British National Party, which is calling for an immediate halt to all further immigration. See the BNP policy statement: http://www.bnp.org.uk/policies/policies.htm

The third group is composed of caucasians, which means it is easier for them to blend in. Since the EU expanded to take in countries like Poland and Latvia, there has been considerable immigration to Britain from those countries and others like them. The difference here is that these people are more readily accepted. They don't try to import their culture in such a way as to encroach upon the indigenous population, they get jobs which other people might not be inclined to do, and they work damned hard.  This group also includes South Africans who, despite having certain privileges that they cannot enjoy here (winks at Lazs) choose to come anyway to escape the high levels of crime in their own country. Many of these are descended from British grandparents, so they have legal right of entry to Britain. The South Africans who come here are also very hard working.
Quote
Originally posted by asilvia
Which countries in Europe are part of the EU and which are not? I thought the UK was part but they did not want to change thier currency to the Ecru(SP??) new Europien currency. Why is that?? I lived in Germany for 8 years and I will say the new currency hasnt gone over that well there. My in-laws still complain about it. Just a question anyways...
A google search would have given you the answer. Here, I've done it for you: http://europa.eu/abc/governments/index_en.htm

Norway is the most notable exception. You're right, and the UK did not switch to the single European currency. The other two that didn't were Denmark and Sweden. Part of the problem in Germany is that they cannot fix interest rates to be able to stimulate their economy. They're stuck with whatever interest rate is mandated by Brussels. Another major problem for Germany is of course their reunification costs.

Why didn't Britain adopt the Euro? Possibly because of the disastrous ERM (exchange rate mechanism) experiment of the early 1990s. Too long to go into here.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 04:13:22 AM by beet1e »

Offline Saintaw

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6692
      • My blog
Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2006, 05:43:38 AM »
I am (getting closer to "I was") for multi-culturalism. London is the place where I've seen this work... then again, every person I met there spoke english.

*- Now to be honnest, the ammount of "non-integrate*" foreigners in Belgium/France is reaching a point I'm not too hot for. there are some areas where you won't see a commercial banner or shop name in french or dutch...all that's is left is arabic or turkish. That, I don't feel too comfortable with. I no longer live in Belgium, and there is no immigration per-se where I live now...immigration laws are tougher than Switzerland here...so I don't live with that issue on a day to day basis. Doesn't look better whenever I go down there though.

Regarding the "they are staling my job" part... I'm not in a niche where that happens , if you are, you should have studied a bit longer.


*-> maybe I'm just getting older.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 05:47:40 AM by Saintaw »
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline Sparks

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 804
Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2006, 11:15:12 AM »
Well so far those Euro residents who have expressed an opinion are tending toward integraton and yet our legislative politicians in Brussells and in our home nations - who we voted for - are pursueing a multi-cultural agenda ???  

This is the sort of thimking I don't understand:-
Quote
It is all about proportion, immigrants should master the language, culture and habits of their new country but they can and probably should preserve a large part of their own cultural identity. As a rule of thumb, they should adopt everything that is required to function within our society, how far they will integrate further is entrely up to them and their environment.

So an immigrant should only have to learn enough to function economicaly in their new country but otherwise can live in a "Little Pakistan / China / Mexico".  ?  These are not immigrants but Economic Migrants - transients.

My feeling is that people emmigrate to improve their lives and future.  By definition that means their country of origin has failed - the culture they live in has failed to generate a life they can live.  Conversly the country they are emmigrating to - with a different culture - has succeeded in providing the lifestyle they aspire to.  Is it surprising then that the nationals of the host country feel threatened when immigrants try to install a failed culture and lifestyle in their prosperous backyard and have the acceptance of it forced upon them.  

Add to that the national conflicts that people then bring with them and trouble is garaunteed.  In my home town the main gang wars are not now black v white but Kurd v Pakistan , Turk v Kurd etc. Following the current global conflicts.

If you compare the situations in the US and Europe:-
The US has immigration laws which effectively rule out econmic migration - you want to live there legally you emmigrate and integrate. However illegal economic migration has been allowed by failure to act and now the problem is too big to handle.
Europe through slack immigration laws has made economic migration possible  legally and now we are in the situation of what to do with an out of control economic migration.
We both have problems of a non integrated population but at least the law is on the integration side in the US.

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2006, 12:17:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
LOL! thanks, Sparks! I suspected as much; wasn't sure if you folks saw the same BS corporate playbook in operation we're seeing here. My guess.. inside 50 years we'll see corporations emerge from behind the skirts of the national politicians they control and the end of 'nationalisim'.

Looks like we're all in this together... and, I don't see any way to stop it.


Dude... the future is Rollerball (the James Caan version). ;)
sand

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2006, 02:25:50 PM »
Ok... I know I'm not supposed to but....

How can you not have multiculturalism if you have a EU?  Seems that you are going to have to accept not only language but customs and even laws of countries that have nothing to do with your traditions or founding.

lazs