Author Topic: Iraq's current situation (analysis) (Read 1859 times)

Brenjen · « **Reply #45 on:** May 26, 2006, 05:45:10 PM »

I don't know about the last paragraph, but I concede the last sentence was a bit much..in fact I shoudn't have typed that last sentence.

Yeager · « **Reply #46 on:** May 26, 2006, 06:04:54 PM »

if I ever tour abroad it will be with at least a battalion

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #47 on:** May 26, 2006, 06:28:37 PM »

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Originally posted by Brenjen

For instance; We didn't declare war on Hawaii....a handful of sailors with rifles took it on a whim, no war declared & right or wrong it belongs to the U.S.

With all due respect, you havent a clue what you are talking about. A handful of sailors? Heh. Yeah right. There are plenty of letters still in existence to and from the US Ambassador which prove (if not conspiracy) at least that a good part of Congress knew of the plans for the Marines to come ashore and help US businessmen on the island of Oahu take the legal ruler of the islands prisoner and declare them the property of the United States. The President afterwards (President Cleveland) even agreed that Hawaii had been taken illegally and attempted to restore the crown to the deposed Queen, but the rest is a story of wounded pride and politics.

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In 1893, Queen Liliuokalani sought to empower herself and Hawaiians through a new constitution which she herself had drawn up and now desired to promulgate as the new law of the land. It was Queen Liliuokalani's right as a sovereign to issue a new constitution through an edict from the throne. A group led by Sanford B. Dole sought to overthrow the institution of the monarchy. The American minister in Hawaii, John L. Stevens, called for troops to take control of Iolani Palace and various other governmental buildings. In 1894, the Queen, was deposed, the monarchy abrogated, and a provisional government was established which later became the Republic of Hawaii.

In 1893, James H. Blount, newly appointed American minister to Hawaii, arrived representing President Grover Cleveland. Blount listened to both sides, annexationists and restorationists, and concluded the Hawaiian people aligned with the Queen. Blount and Cleveland agreed the Queen should be restored. Blount's final report implicated the American minister Stevens in the illegal overthrow of Liliuokalani. Albert S. Willis, Cleveland's next American minister offered the crown back to the Queen on the condition she pardon and grant general amnesty to those who had dethroned her. She initially refused but soon she changed her mind and offered clemency. This delay compromised her political position and President Cleveland had released the entire issue of the Hawaiian revolution to Congress for debate. The annexationists promptly lobbied Congress against restoration of the monarchy. On July 4, 1894, the Republic of Hawaii with Sanford B. Dole as president was proclaimed. It was recognized immediately by the United States government.

In 1895, Liliuokalani was arrested and forced to reside in Iolani Palace after a cache of weapons was found in the gardens of her home in Washington Place. She denied knowing of the existence of this cache and was reportedly unaware of others' efforts to restore the royalty. In 1896, she was released and returned to her home at Washington Place where she lived for the next two decades. Hawaii was annexed to the United States through a joint resolution of the U. S. Congress in 1898 . The "ex-"queen died due to complications from a stroke in 1917. A statue of her was erected on the grounds of the State Capital in Honolulu.

Hangtime · « **Reply #48 on:** May 26, 2006, 06:49:40 PM »

corporate theives. corrupted diplomats and congressmen.

the more things change, the more they stay the same

Brenjen · « **Reply #49 on:** May 26, 2006, 07:10:21 PM »

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With all due respect, you havent a clue what you are talking about

Let me get this straight, you say I don't have a clue & then you back up what I said. Hmmm, who is IT that doesn't have a clue?

Hawaii was taken without a declaration of war. Yes or no?

Hawaii was taken by 150 Marines and Sailors from the USS BOSTON. Yes or No?

Hawaii; right or wrong is a state in the United States & therefore belongs forever to the United States. Yes or No?

The answer to all three is Yes.

I call that a handful of sailors & captured on a whim & Hawaii belongs to the U.S. PERMANENTLY.

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #50 on:** May 26, 2006, 08:10:05 PM »

It wasnt done on a whim, it was pre-planned for months and executed with United States Marines, not a "handful of sailors". It was led by US officials with the knowledge and endorsement (even if not publicly) of US Congressmen. It is a state now yes. Whether it remains so forever is a topic still being debated today. And gaining support. The ONLY reason Hawaii is still a US state is because of it's strategic importance to the US military and our national defense. You certainly have a skewed way of looking at things. I suppose by your standards, Texas and New Mexico were taken away from Mexico by a handful of farmers and handed to the US to become states, the military had nothing to do with it?

Hangtime · « **Reply #51 on:** May 26, 2006, 08:43:59 PM »

LOL!

Go get 'em Star.

Just because you don't happen to like the way it happened doesn't change how it happened. Sometimes, the ends just don't justify means. The way to actually LEARN from history and perhaps avoid repeating it is to understand what REALLY happened and why... and that's not always easy since the folks that came out on top usually write the history.

Brenjen · « **Reply #52 on:** May 26, 2006, 09:12:52 PM »

I say the way they did it was most certainly a whim...if not less than that..an afterthought maybe. And 150 sailors is the same as a 150 marines...what? You thought they landed tanks or something? Had Harrier back-up? LOL 1 ship + 150 sailors = Hawaii as a vacation state...for-ever. Like it or not - right or wrong.

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It is a state now yes. Whether it remains so forever is a topic still being debated today. And gaining support. The ONLY reason Hawaii is still a US state is because of it's strategic importance to the US military and our national defense.

Whether it remains so?? My god man you have got a rude awakening in front of you, you're living in a dreamworld. Hawaii is & always will be a state, the south fought & lost a war over that very issue & you think the mighty hawaiians are just gonna up & tell the federal govt. "no thanks"? Ain't gunna hapn capn.

Yeager · « **Reply #53 on:** May 26, 2006, 09:14:40 PM »

is it time to deploy the 101st Fighting Keyboardists???

Hangtime · « **Reply #54 on:** May 26, 2006, 09:20:52 PM »

i have an entrenching tool i use as an antenna tuner....

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #55 on:** May 26, 2006, 09:38:39 PM »

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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
It wasnt done on a whim, it was pre-planned for months and....

Department of redundancy department, division of pet peeves division.

Since planning is thinking about what you are going to do, pre-lanning must be whatever you do before you begin planning.

A local mortuary has a radio commercial that encourages people to call them to confer and "pre-plan" their final arrangements.

I have had a hankerin' to call them and tell them I am constantly pre-planning as I never think about it, so why should I have to confer with them to continue not thinking about it.

I guess that's not as bad as the local company that advertises "insect screening screens".

Hangtime · « **Reply #56 on:** May 26, 2006, 09:43:51 PM »

redundancy is an airbag in feinstens limo.

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #57 on:** May 27, 2006, 02:05:15 AM »

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Originally posted by Brenjen
I say the way they did it was most certainly a whim...if not less than that..an afterthought maybe. And 150 sailors is the same as a 150 marines...what? You thought they landed tanks or something? Had Harrier back-up? LOL 1 ship + 150 sailors = Hawaii as a vacation state...for-ever. Like it or not - right or wrong.

Whether it remains so?? My god man you have got a rude awakening in front of you, you're living in a dreamworld. Hawaii is & always will be a state, the south fought & lost a war over that very issue & you think the mighty hawaiians are just gonna up & tell the federal govt. "no thanks"? Ain't gunna hapn capn.

Tell you what bud. You walk into a bar full of Marines and call them "sailor". That should be fun. For the Marines. For a few minutes anyway.

"Sailors" are chauffers that drop the Marines off when they reach their destination. "Marines" kill people. See the difference there? Marines dont need tanks or harriers to do their job. Just icing on the cake.

You make it sound like a couple of ships were in port, the sailors went on a drunken riot and took over the island playing King of the Hill. Nice fantasy.

Now, as to the rest. First of all, the US government has OFFICIALLY recognized the travesty that happened here in 1894. An official apology was issued. Every time it is introduced, the Akaka bill gains more support. Eventually its going to pass, and native Hawaiians will be granted the same status as native American Indian tribes. From there its only a short jump to having land set aside ala reservations, and from there another short jump to regaining control of the islands. Again, the only thing that prevents the US from just giving the islands back and burying the whole thing is the strategic importance of their location. Hawaii was a sovreign nation, not some empty space. You want precedent? Look at the Philippines.

Your arguments about the Civil War hold no water. Hawaii hasnt revolted or attempted secession. Nor do they need to. Actually, truth be told, most Hawaiians dont mind being Americans. What they mind is they werent given a choice. Their "status" has been dictated to them for over 100 years by owners of American corporations and the US military. They cant say "no thanks" because they never asked for statehood in the first place. The vote wasnt exactly unanimous, nor was it Hawaiians who voted it in.

Show us some more of your ignorance, please.

Edbert1 · « **Reply #58 on:** May 27, 2006, 10:05:25 AM »

The marine Corps is but one department of the Navy.

The Men's department that is.

Brenjen · « **Reply #59 on:** May 27, 2006, 10:53:51 AM »

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"Sailors" are chauffers that drop the Marines off when they reach their destination. "Marines" kill people

I'm sure a navy specwar operator would love to set you straight on a couple of the finer points too.

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Now, as to the rest. First of all, the US government has OFFICIALLY recognized the travesty that happened here in 1894. An official apology was issued. Every time it is introduced, the Akaka bill gains more support. Eventually its going to pass, and native Hawaiians will be granted the same status as native American Indian tribes. From there its only a short jump to having land set aside ala reservations, and from there another short jump to regaining control of the islands. Again, the only thing that prevents the US from just giving the islands back and burying the whole thing is the strategic importance of their location. Hawaii was a sovreign nation, not some empty space. You want precedent? Look at the Philippines. Show us some more of your ignorance, please.

I think you summed up about all the *duh* I can handle.

By the way, the phillipines were never a state & the Native Americans never secceded from the Union, my god...public schools are ruining this country. Go ahead & vote all you want, Hawaii is never leaving the union - period, get used to it.