Author Topic: BF-109G6 JG50 Hermann Graf (Read 2434 times)

Bruno · « **Reply #15 on:** May 28, 2006, 04:34:41 PM »

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most G6s used the same patters

Not really, even G-6s from the same staffel (same painter) all looked different in tone and in pattern. The only way to be sure you are close to accurate is to study images of the actual aircraft. Even then there's room for interpretation.

Treize69 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 28, 2006, 05:10:20 PM »

A lot of it depends on when the aircraft was built and whether its been to a repair facility. I've seen pics that go the other way- all have the same splinter camo pattern, the differences are to be seen in the fuselage mottling.

I also have some (granted, they're Romanian, not German) that have standard RLM green/grey splintering on the wings and H-stabs, but the whole upper fuselage oversprayed with a third shade of grey and mottled heavily with another shade of grey or green.

I've never seen a photo of Grafs 109, just paintings, and all have different mottling, coloring, and some have totally different splinter patterns. About the only thing that anyone seems to sgree on is the red tulip pattern and white tail.

Bruno · « **Reply #17 on:** May 28, 2006, 05:26:20 PM »

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I've never seen a photo of Grafs 109

Follow the link above, there's one on Christer's webpage...

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just paintings, and all have different mottling, coloring, and some have totally different splinter patterns. About the only thing that anyone seems to sgree on is the red tulip pattern and white tail.

That's why books and images of the rl aircraft are far more usefull then just snagging a few images off the net, especially decal sheets...

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A lot of it depends on when the aircraft was built and whether its been to a repair facility.

Factory colors and geschwader paint schemes are different. For most part repaired or new aircraft would be repainted once they arrived at the staffel. Exceptions are made toward the end of the war where a/c were just oversprayed or tactical markings applied right over the old ones etc...

Krusty · « **Reply #18 on:** May 28, 2006, 06:21:51 PM »

Bruno, they didn't coin the term "accuracy nazi" for no reason, you know. They had very strict rules for how and where to paint there aircraft. A FEW units disobeyed (JG54 is one of my favorites because they broke the rules) but MOST of them followed the specifications. The mottling and some other types of paint were customized from plane to plane, but the splinter scheme was pretty much set. You have maybe 1-2 variations for every plane on the standard 2-tone splinter scheme, but it's not as individual as you make it seem. Overspraying, and whitewash, and other things go on top of the splinter, but the splinter underneath is very much similar to the plane next to it.

Fencer51 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 28, 2006, 09:06:11 PM »

Just trying to get the basic colors down and understand the way the Luftwaffe did camo. Should the molting be RLM75 or RLM74?

Found another detail of the plane and it shows jagged edges to the camo.

Update:

Bruno · « **Reply #20 on:** May 28, 2006, 10:34:24 PM »

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They had very strict rules for how and where to paint there aircraft.

There are clear images of Graf's Grün 1. These can be found in several books, including the one I linked above. There's no need to guess or use decal sheets of other aircraft as a guide.

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The mottling and some other types of paint were customized from plane to plane, but the splinter scheme was pretty much set. You have maybe 1-2 variations for every plane on the standard 2-tone splinter scheme, but it's not as individual as you make it seem. Overspraying, and whitewash, and other things go on top of the splinter, but the splinter underneath is very much similar to the plane next to it.

There was no set pattern to the mottle. The amount of mottling depend on the painter and they varied from plane to plane. If you are looking at one plane for detail and skinning another your final product will be inaccurate.

Fencer,

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Just trying to get the basic colors down and understand the way the Luftwaffe did camo. Should the molting be RLM75 or RLM74?

The colors would be RLM 74 for the dark uppercoat. There are several variations of RLM 74 from a dark grey to a grey/green. Sundin (the profile in your original post) has chosen the dark grey but others have used the grey/green tone for Grün 1.

RLM 75 is the lighter of the uppercoat it can be a shade of light to medium grey.

The mottle for the most part would be a light coat of rlm 74 (same tone as the dark uppercoat) and as it fades the undercoat of rlm 76 would show through. From the images I have seen of Grün 1 there is also some RLM 75 mixed in as well

For RLM 76 my best guess would be the blue green variant of RLM 76.

As for the decal sheet you posted the wing camo pattern is accurate enough.
The lighter coat of the upper wing would be RLM 75 and the dark camo would be RLM 74 with the distinctive 'steps'.

The mottle on the decal sheet OTOH is less so. Look at the photo of Grün 1 at the top of this page:

JG 50: "Geschwader Graf"

You can see splotches of RLM 74 with what appears to be lighter splotches of RLM 75.

There's plenty of room for artistic interpretation so good luck...

Bruno · « **Reply #21 on:** May 28, 2006, 10:53:18 PM »

Here's a version of the JG50 gruppe insignia I had on file...

I looked through the images I have of Grün 1 and none of them have the Gruppe insignia. If you decide to go with the insignia feel free to use the one below if you like...

Fencer51 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 29, 2006, 11:26:19 AM »

Do the kill markings show up on both sides of the rudder usually?

Also ordered the following books;

"Aircraft of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces/Book 1: A Chronicle in Photographs (Schiffer Military/Aviation History)"
Bernd Barbas

"Aircraft of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces/Book 2: A Chronicle in Photographs (Schiffer Military/Aviation History)"
Bernd Barbas

"Jagdwaffe Defending The Reich 1943 1944 (Luftwaffe Colours)"
Robert Forsyth

"Jagdwaffe: Defending The Reich 1944-45, Section 3 (Classic Colours)"
Robert Forsyth

Bruno · « **Reply #23 on:** May 29, 2006, 01:30:46 PM »

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Do the kill markings show up on both sides of the rudder usually?

Yes

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"Aircraft of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces/Book 1: A Chronicle in Photographs (Schiffer Military/Aviation History)"
Bernd Barbas

"Aircraft of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces/Book 2: A Chronicle in Photographs (Schiffer Military/Aviation History)"
Bernd Barbas

Bernd Barbas is also writing volumes on JG52. Here's a link to his site and he can be contacted on the forum over there if you have any questions.

Traditionsgemeinschaft Jagdgeschwader 52

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"Jagdwaffe Defending The Reich 1943 1944 (Luftwaffe Colours)"
Robert Forsyth

"Jagdwaffe: Defending The Reich 1944-45, Section 3 (Classic Colours)"
Robert Forsyth

The Jadwaffe series is decent all round and you should be happy with them...

Fencer51 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 29, 2006, 03:16:49 PM »

Thanks Bruno for the JG badge!

Update: no weathering, wear, tear, smoke, oil etc.

Would appreciate opinions on colors and camo.

Cheers

Treize69 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 29, 2006, 03:29:16 PM »

The colors look a little too vibrant and too well contrasted. But its not weathered, so thats probably part of it.

sharp8th · « **Reply #26 on:** May 29, 2006, 04:07:52 PM »

but still it looks VERY NICE

Bruno · « **Reply #27 on:** May 29, 2006, 04:29:25 PM »

You may need to adjusts the tones of your camo colors to fit for AH lighting. AH is rather dark so experiment a bit until you get the tones you like.

About the mottling, it is too uniform. Try varying your brush settings as you apply the mottle. Also, the mottle is too 'solid'. You set your bruch to 'spray' and play with the opacity to get a nice sprayed on look. You could also try some blur coupled with opacity and fill adjustments.

Use as many layers as necessary. For example right now my A-5 template that I am currently working on has 80 layers and I haven't even finished the lines and rivets.

My G-14s and K-4s templates have damn near 200 layers.

What I do is use a separate layer for each camo color, then a separate layers for the mottle. I may have 5 or 6 layers for the mottle alone depending on how 'complicated' the look. Eventually these all get merged down to single layers as I move on to another aspect of the skin but the more layers you use the more control you have in making adjustments.

Fencer51 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 02, 2006, 09:38:42 AM »

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Originally posted by Fencer51
Also ordered the following books;

"Aircraft of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces/Book 1: A Chronicle in Photographs (Schiffer Military/Aviation History)"
Bernd Barbas

"Aircraft of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces/Book 2: A Chronicle in Photographs (Schiffer Military/Aviation History)"
Bernd Barbas

"Jagdwaffe Defending The Reich 1943 1944 (Luftwaffe Colours)"
Robert Forsyth

"Jagdwaffe: Defending The Reich 1944-45, Section 3 (Classic Colours)"
Robert Forsyth

I used to buy alot of aviation books, and since I started playing this game and skinning I again started adding to my library.

I think these books cost about $140+/-. This was prehaps the best $140 I have spent on books in years. For those wanting good Luftwaffe references I highly recommend these books and based upon the two Jagdwaffe books that entire series.

I will be modifying the above skin based upon this new source of references and will post for comment.

Cheers,

Krusty · « **Reply #29 on:** June 02, 2006, 11:55:31 AM »

Take the white on the tail and dim it a bit. Make it more of a cream white, slightly duller.

Before you redo the mottle, take the mottling layers and apply the filter blur or guassian blur. This will soften the edges a lot and make it look more "sprayed on".

If you don't like that try redoing some of them the way bruno suggests.