Why Haditha matters ?

[Timofei]

Enough details have emerged from survivors and military personnel to conclude that in the town of Haditha last November, members of the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment perpetrated a massacre. The killings may have been in retaliation for the death of a Marine lance corporal, but this was not the work of soldiers gone berserk. The targets (children from 3 to 14, an old man in a wheelchair, taxi passengers), the hours-long duration of killings, the number of Marines involved, the careful mop-up — all amount to willful, targeted brutality designed to send a message to Iraqis. As Representative John Murtha has pointed out, the patently false story floated afterward, blaming the killings on roadside bombs, and Marine payoffs to survivors imply a cover-up that may extend far up the chain of command.
What matters about Haditha? After all, Iraq is a place where civilians die every day. Many of them die as a result of insurgent car bombs, or at the hands of Sunni or *****e militias. Many thousands of others died in US air attacks early in the war (as civilians did recently in airstrikes in another US war zone, Kandahar).

Even in this context there remains a distinctly sickening horror in close-up systematic killing of civilians that's at odds with the declared US mission in Iraq and is repugnant to our national ideals. Even under intense battlefield conditions, troops can instigate atrocities, or they can resist them. In the My Lai massacre, in 1968, Hugh Thompson Jr., an American helicopter pilot, saved many lives by putting himself between the guns of Charlie Company and the villagers whom those behind the guns — led by their officers — were wantonly killing. A generation of future US military officers were taught the details of the My Lai massacre as a particular lesson: What makes war crimes is criminal leadership. Whatever the responsibility of the unit commanders in Haditha, it is George W. Bush as Commander in Chief who has sent the clear message that human rights abuses and violations of international law are justified in the "war on terror."

That the Marines institutionally covered up Haditha until Time magazine raised questions with the Corps suggests that the moral damage from the Iraq War is broader than a single debased unit. That is what so powerfully motivates Murtha, a Marine and Vietnam veteran. Another Marine, Senator John Warner, is promising hearings, but his Armed Services Committee's toothless investigation of Abu Ghraib offers scant hope of serious inquiry. As with My Lai a generation ago, it is participants in the Haditha killings or cover-up — some haunted by what they saw or heard about — who are bringing details to the press.

What happened in Haditha and how it was covered up is only half the story. The rest is yet to unfold: whether Haditha kindles a long-overdue reckoning with the moral catastrophe of this war or the shock gets defused by low-level Congressional inquiries; whether Haditha turns out to have been the low point of the US military venture in Iraq or a foreshadowing of worse to come. What we need is not the "picture of what happened" promised by the White House but a full-scale investigation both of the massacre in Haditha and of the climate of impunity that allowed it to happen and to be ignored for so long.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/02/opinion/main1676788.shtml

[lazs2]

I think that I will wait to hear the results of the investigation.

lazs

[Hangtime]

I wish everybody would recognize what the marines have done right... and freverently wish that this case would be thoroughly investigated before it gets tried in the media...

unfortunately, it won't be. it's already being compared to My Lai. the troop, it's officers and the marine corps are being roasted for political expediency.

Fact: War sucks, **** happens, and the press revels in it, politicans use it for votes and opinion grandstanding and the Marine Corps will wind up being the scapegoat. And there WILL be a scapegoat.. and it won't have much if anything to do with the reality of war.

[AquaShrimp]

Haditha is a sickening situation.  The big goal of the U.S. was to restore peace to Iraq (after no WMDs were found), not to shoot women, children, and old men.

Even monsters wear uniforms sometimes.

[Hangtime]

Ok.. find me an example of warfare where 'atrocities' did not occur on both sides.

You won't find one.

It's called the 'nature' of war.. and it happens. Yes, we try real hard to keep it from happening, yes, when it happens, it's horriffic... but to assume that just because the soldier is an american that an atrocity won't occur is assinine.

This is all part of the 'fallout' of armed conflict.. you have a war, yer gonna have 'atrocities.'

And, just as sure as rain falls.. it'll be exploited not as a regretable and expected by-product of war, but instead, as an example of the supposed butality and insensitivity of the American Soldier.

[vorticon]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Ok.. find me an example of warfare where 'atrocities' did not occur on both sides.

You won't find one.

It's called the 'nature' of war.. and it happens. Yes, we try real hard to keep it from happening, yes, when it happens, it's horriffic... but to assume that just because the soldier is an american that an atrocity won't occur is assinine.

and to want that, because it happened during war, the scale of a atrocity should be minimized, is dangerous at best.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Read there:

It will be exploited by politicians to either help further their careers or attack someone else's.  

Time started it by wanting to sell a story.  Now every politician in Washington is going to try to sell their own version of the story to someone.

He who writes the best story, wins.

[GtoRA2]

Wait, did I miss the trial where Marines were convicted of the crimes that murtha claims they did?

[AlGorithm]

Washington will try to paint Haditha as an aberration, much the way they did with My Lai. In reality, it's a psychological message to those who support the insurgency.

Insurgent guerrillas can't operate without support of the populace. The massacre of civilians at the scene of insurgent attacks (Fallujah, Haditha, Ishaqi, My Lai and countless other unnamed and forgotten villages) is intended to send a message; You will be held accountable for the actions of the insurgents you support.

Any chance of "winning the hearts and minds" of the Iraqis was lost a long time ago. Just as it was in Viet Nam, by a corrupt, incompetent and duplicitous administration.

It's not surprising that the key players from Nixon's administration (Cheney and Rumsfeld) are screwing up the in the same ways they did in Viet Nam, and using many of the same tactics to suppress domestic dissent (illegal wiretaps, enemies lists, smear campaigns, bogus prosecutions).

Now their only chance to maintain control is to put the populace under the boot.

The best is yet to come. When this war is over, tens of thousands of the boots that have been stepping on arab necks will be handed badges and start stepping on yours.

[Eagler]

^^:noid ^^

[AlGorithm]

^^^^^^

[Gunslinger]

The Marine is Lance Cpl. James Crossan, who rode in the passenger seat of the Humvee that was struck by an IED. The driver was Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, whose body was split in two by the attack. Lance Cpl. Crossan suffered a broken back, shattered bones, and perforated eardrums.

Crossan: We used to go out on patrols and have the little kids count the patrols and all that stuff and we couldn’t really do anything except grab them and throw them inside their houses…
KING 5 TV interviewer: Why would you do that? Because you were afraid that the kids were scouting for the insurgents or you thought they were in danger?

Crossan: There are little kids that scout for ‘em. ‘Cuz later that day we, along the main road there, we cut behind a few buildings and the next patrol that went out got hit. And that little kid that was just there and there was people all around. But the day that I got hit they were planning a major attack and it got spoiled, so, and there was like 20 some people, insurgents, that were gonna attack the cop that day.

Then we got hit by an IED and the cops sent out a squad of Marines, and the insurgents just started attacking then, just right off the bat and we just foiled it. We were just driving back from the cop. I remember taking a left and then a right, and then remember waking up from the ground for a split second. And then waking up in the helicopter and then finally knew what happened in the hospital.

KING 5: So after you were injured, also tell me, you lost one of your guys. What can you tell me about him?

Crossan: We lost Lance Col. Miguel Terrazas. He was a good guy. He was from El Paso, Texas. And he was my point man. He was pretty much the guy I went to if I needed anything.

KING 5: Was he driving the Humvee at the time?

Crossan: Yes he was.

KING 5. And so you were sitting next to me?

Crossan: Yes, I was in the passenger side. I know in my heart if I was there, I possibly could have stopped what happened, so. ‘Cuz I know that the other team leaders and even staff sergeants…they both, they all kinda, listened to me and I just gave ‘em ideas and all that stuff. Things just went smoother. But I just don’t know.

KING 5: How do you feel about the villagers involved? Um, you know, do you have emotion as you think about them or not really?

Crossan: No. Because half of them were bad guys. You just never know, so. It really didn’t cross my mind.

KING 5: There are reports of, you know, little children being killed and women being killed.

Crossan: Little kids I can see being bad and even some of the women, but just over there, you just can’t tell who the bad guy was...

Now, Lance Cpl. Crossan does suggest that Marines crossed the line (the part of the interview that will become the most publicized), though it should be kept in mind that he had been helicoptered from the scene and did not witness the alleged atrocities:

Crossan: ...And I know they [the Marines] did something irrational and they’re gonna get the consequences put on them.
KING 5: You think there are other instances like this that have happened with perhaps your squad or other squads?

Crossan: Probably yes in the Marine Corps and in the Army.

KING 5: Why do you think so?

Crossan: Things happen every day that you just don't hear about. You, I don't know, America only hears about the bad things over there. And they don't hear any of the good things. America just doesn't understand.

I think they [the Marines] were just blinded by hate, when they see T.J. (Terrazas) blown to pieces and me stuck underneath the wheel not knowing what happened. And they just lost control. Bad things happen.

http://michellemalkin.com/mt/oct05-tb.cgi?__mode=view&entry_id=5300

[john9001]

Originally posted by AlGorithm


It's not surprising that the key players from Nixon's administration (Cheney and Rumsfeld) are screwing up the in the same ways they did in Viet Nam, and using many of the same tactics to suppress domestic dissent (illegal wiretaps, enemies lists, smear campaigns, bogus prosecutions).

and now boys and girls it's time for a history lesson.

after 6 years of messing up in Vietnam, LBJ and his master mind, wizkid McNamara, left office and Nixon was now president of the USA and he won the Vietnam war with operation linebacker 2 and brought the troops home, but then the democratic controlled congress cut off all military aid to south Vietnam and let the north invade and "win".

[Toad]

Originally posted by AlGorithm
Washington will try to paint Haditha as an aberration, much the way they did with My Lai.

[/b]

Really? How many other "My Lai" type incidents can you document? Must be a bunch, right?

It's not surprising that the key players from Nixon's administration (Cheney and Rumsfeld) are screwing up the in the same ways they did in Viet Nam,

[/b]

Oh, yeah... Mr. Nixon's war....  

13 May 61 - President Kennedy orders 100 "special forces" troops to S. Vietnam

November 1963, Lyndon Johnson becomes President.

July 64 - Announcement states that US military contingent in Vietnam would increase 5,000 more to 21,000

7 Feb 65 - "In the early hours of February 7th, 1965, the VC upped the ante when they launched a guerilla assault against the military barracks at Pleiku where US military advisors were housed. The attack left 8 Americans dead, and President Johnson reacted as though the VC had delivered a personal insult." Johnson ordered a retaliatory air-strike against North Vietnam the next day.   Operation "Rolling Thunder" began in mid-February and lasted 3 years

April 7, 1965- The U.S. offers North Vietnam economic aid in exchange for peace, but the offer is summarily rejected. Two weeks later, President Johnson raises America's combat strength in Vietnam to more than 60,000 troops.

End of 1966- By the end of 1966, American forces in Vietnam reach 385,000 men, plus an additional 60,000 sailors stationed offshore. More than 6,000 Americans have been killed in this year, and 30,000 have been wounded.

1967- Secretary of Defense Robert Strange McNamara, appearing before a Senate subcommittee, testifies that US bombing raids against North Vietnam have not achieved their objectives. McNamara maintains that movement of supplies to South Vietnam has not been reduced, and neither the economy nor the morale of the North Vietnamese has been broken.

At the end of 1967, there were 485,600 US troops involved in the VietNam war and more had already be requested and were on the way.

1968... Mr. Nixon at last takes charge of "Mr. Nixon's War". Troop levels peak at 536100. US and North Vietnam meet at the beginning of the Paris Peace talks.

1969 troop levels begin to drop; 475200.

1970 troop levels continue to drop; 334600, about the same level Johnson had in 1966.

1971 troop levels continue to drop; 156800

1972 troop levels continue to drop; 24200

1973 toop levels are essentially nil at 50. Paris Peace talks result in the end of US involvement.


Oh yeah... Mr. Nixon's war. You bet.

Let's see, he was inaugurated in January 1968 and Paris Peace talks started in May 1968. Troop levels in VietNam also begin to drop as soon as Nixon takes over.

Mr. Nixon's war.  Screwed up the in the same ways they did in Viet Nam. Heh.

Johnson ramps the troops from ~21,000 to roughly 485,000 between 1963 and the end of 1967. Robert STRANGE McNamara micromanages a war using a method that is most famous for absolutely idiotic Rules of Engagement on the ground and in the air.

And it's "Mr. Nixon's War". Nixon. Oh, yeah...HE's the one that screwed the pooch in VietNam.

What a bloody joke.

[soda72]

1975: Saigon surrenders