roadkill statements with no facts what so ever to back them up on the other hand...
well-well - it's what you choose to call BS, isn't it? I'm sorry, I'm not in Russia and can't come up with equal number of websites as a source of info (only based in Russia and in Russian - just to "help"
) for you to examine and eventually still call BS because you are already have your mind made up
What kind of proof you want to accept that Finnish occupational troops were feared more than Germans? It is what is called "people's knowledge", it's what the survivors told - it's in the books and people's memory. It's difficult to document but it so obviously comes
not from "official sources" that it is very believable to me. Maybe Finns felt that they had scores to settle?
Officially Finland was a "friend" after WW2, surely you know that? Who in his right mind would slag off a "friend"? Survivors on the other hand, they didn't care for politics, they just remembered how it was. You chose not to believe it - that is up to you.
On the other hand, your personal "difficulty in believing in Stalin's sticking to the agreement" is obviously not based on any fact but that seems OK to you and yours. Others for some reason have to "prove themselves”?
Funnily enough, the
fact is that Stalin did stick to his word. Regardless of your personal perceptions of the terms the peace treaty was signed by both parties - that is the Soviets and your own
legitimate government. Contrary to your (and Staga's – “…After what happened in other countries like Estonia, Latvija and Lithuania they were quite suspicious about Soviet Unions offerings and
not without reason…” ) disbelief in the Soviets' sticking to the terms they did not break it, you did. On the 25 June 1941 Finland without provocation attacked the Soviet Union. Mind you, it wasn't "our cause is just, the enemy will be crushed and the victory will be ours" (J. Stalin) - no, not the "small" Finland deciding to risk everything in order to recover lost territory, not "the underdog taking it to the big bully persay" (AG Sachsenberg) - they waited 3 days - to see how German attack (22.06.1941) would progress before deciding “to join the party”… Did they teach you this in school and, if they did, how do you justify that “honourable deed”?
I have a few more documented facts for you to ponder about:
Finland was “winning” (that is largely according to you and Staga) yet it was Finland who asked for peace in Winter War. In fact, they kept asking for peace since December'39 (one month into the war) until the negotiations began and pretty much agreed to
anything Soviets demanded. Why would a winning side do that? Let you in on a little secret – you weren’t winning the war.
Not individuals individually but many skilled individuals working together with superior tactics compared to the enemy.
Individual successes and tactical victories you like so much to point to were not helping much: "...The situation at the front was near catastrophic. The commander of the II Corps, Lt.Gen. Öhquist, stated that the front could maybe hold for a week, but no more. The Finnish suffered average daily losses of nearly 1 000 men, and especially the officer losses were alarming. The only conclusion was, that any delays in the peace negotiations would result only in worse conditions and harder demands..." (
www.winterwar.com - nice site, in English and is owned by a Finn who seems to be unafraid of the truth...) That’s March 1940 btw, before your government signed for anything Molotov was asking for.
According to what Staga and yourself posted here, Finland allied itself with Germany because “Allies abandoned Finland to face Soviet Union alone and only Germans were helping out”:
As far as I know that was the only hand, Only country which were able to send food, ammos, guns, tanks and planes when Finland fought against Russia. Allies had some nice thoughts '40 thought it needs more than good will to fight against red-army invasion forces.
Fact is that without help from Germany there wouldn't be any free Finland after the war but a country just like Eastern Germany with a puppet government.
Just shows how little you do know, doesn’t it? As aircav pointed out it’s the other side actually helped – your entire airforce was made of
non German aircraft, France was ready to ship 50,000 troops to help you fight the Soviet invasion in Winter war etc Germany sent you squat during the Winter War and yet you felt grateful to them for saving you? Oh well…
Btw German "Ostersee Division" helped Finland to keep its new freedom in 1918 when their landing troops went to Hanko (Small city/harbor west of Helsinki) and helped so called "whites" to defeat "Reds": communists who wished Finland should stay as a part of Russia.
Staga, pal, go back to school, OK? Normal school please, not the school of revisionist history and fiction. Those “reds” gave you your freedom in the first place. Lenin’s government was the first to recognise Finland as a state… Jeepers…
I'm with Staga on this one. Finland successfully fought for its existance. They hurt Russia enough so that Stalin offered terms rather than set himself up for more hurt, not because he didn't want all of Finland. Finland accepted the terms because they didn't want to have their nation occupied and be fighting a resistance war.
The ferocity and effectivness of the Finnish defense is what caused the terms to be offered, without that Finland would have simply been another provice of the Soviet Union from 1939 to 1991.
and you are wrong Karnak – Soviets never “offered terms”, Finns did. Finns were losing that war, plain and simple. The whole story about Winter War seems to be turned up side down to accommodate oh so more “acceptable” and propagated by some historians “truth” about “little defenceless honourable Finland” fighting “ruthless and merciless bad Ruskies” and somehow winning. When it came to sticking to agreements it was the Finns who failed that test. And in the light of later
factual Finnish attack on the Soviet Union one could only be grateful for Stalin’s foresight in 1939… Leningrad would stand a very slim chance indeed had the border not been pushed farther away from the city.
We all know how the history books were written in ex russia
Thank you MrSid for your vote of confidence. Looks like in this case they weren’t that far from what actually happened, weird huh?
Who would expect
that to come from an “ignorant who wants to throw dirt on the subject”? Yours wasn’t the last laugh (excuse the pun) it seems…
One reason why Finnish government didn't trust Soviet-Union and for me it looks like this is daily issue even now (Tchetshenia).
BTW my father was a refugee; He and his family had to left Viipuri because of russian invasion. He told me how they had to run to the woods from road because of Russian fighters and bombers.
BTW my parents
are refugees. They had to flee Grozny – the capital of Chechnya, that very place where all “democracy lovers” of the world are trying to rub Russia’s nose in. You have not a slightest idea what is going on there and why and yet you feel you have a right to pass your judgement on the place…
Under no circumstances I condone the attack of the Soviet Union on Finland under whatever daft pretense it was made. But lets limit the amount of roadkill spewed about what happened 60 years ago and perpetuated by some obviously rather ignorant people for god knows what reason…
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 05-17-2001).]
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 05-17-2001).]
