Author Topic: Cheaters in film ? (Read 452 times)

Staga · « **on:** February 11, 2001, 12:57:00 AM »

Two really cool avi's about Russian fighters doing some aerobatics.
Just wondering if someone would call these pilots cheaters

Kobra, 4.17Mb, And other Film, 2.28Mb

StSanta · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2001, 01:01:00 AM »

Heheh Russian planes are cool

.

They use limited computer technology but get that despite it.

Of course, many argue that those moves have little value in a dogfight, but it *does* speak volumes about Russian aircraft designers.

Must be kidnapped descendants of Tank.

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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space"

Midnight · « **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2001, 01:15:00 AM »

They stole that idea from the N1K in AH.

Seriously, I think either of those moves would be very effective in real combat, providing it was close range.

Espcially that second move. If the 37 was pursued, it could pull that flip, immidiately begin target tracking, and have a firing soulution as it regains forward flight. Extremely cool

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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"

Midnight
13th TAS
midnight@13thtas.com

"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)

Boroda · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2001, 12:32:00 PM »

"Cobra" will make any radar-homing misslie lose a "target speed autotracking". That's all. In real BVR combat any target crossing the SAM hit range has the only target: the target-illuminating antenna...

/*Aircraft Defence point of view*/

And please understand that it's a MAN, not the machine.

Soviet/Russian aerobatic stunts are dangerous. The last Su-30MKI crash in France was a resul of bad planing from French side: the crew had to make the lastt loop in controlled spin only to protect the public

What a sensation when you feel the ROAR with your guts watching Pugachev or Frolov twisting his plane in some kind of unbelievable maneuver over the Zhukovskiy airfield! This mighty POWER makes you realise that there is a Great Country behind you!

3A CCCP!

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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

Jay_76 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 12, 2001, 09:06:00 AM »

re- Russian vs. US aircraft...

I remember watching a documentary on Discovery a while ago, comparing the effect divergent philosophies have on technology, and they cited the fighters as an example.

US relies heavily on technology and first strike capability- the Russians are more concerned about ruggedness and defense. Try landing a F-16 in a cornfield and then taking off from it, or having its pilot repair it himself... [edit] I also studied this in a Philosophy of Technology course.

Anyhow, not US bashing per se... just wondering if anyone has any other references to material on this subject.

Jay.

[This message has been edited by Jay_76 (edited 02-12-2001).]

Tac · « **Reply #5 on:** February 12, 2001, 11:08:00 AM »

Yes, Discovery showed a comparison between Soviet and US fighter craft design.

US craft were extremely capable, and also extremely costly. Soviet fighters had equal and even better performance, were a heck of a lot cheaper in both price and maintainance cost, very rugged and reliable.

The only thing that gave the US fighters "THE" edge was their radar.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #6 on:** February 12, 2001, 11:12:00 AM »

I've seen film of the F22 doing some amazing things, and if SU37 and F22 met HTH in close combat (i.e no missiles) , the SU37 would lose.

fd ski · « **Reply #7 on:** February 12, 2001, 11:37:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ripsnort:
I've seen film of the F22 doing some amazing things, and if SU37 and F22 met HTH in close combat (i.e no missiles) , the SU37 would lose.

Since you work for boeing i would say you're tad biased

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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

Ripsnort · « **Reply #8 on:** February 12, 2001, 11:43:00 AM »

I'm going by actual data, which I cannot share.

..and yes, biased as well.

Jay_76 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 12, 2001, 01:26:00 PM »

...I also remember hearing somewhere (might have been my SAR pilot cousin in the Canuck military) that for every hour a US fighter spends in the air, it needs 30 "man hours" in maintenance afterwards, in terms of checkups and replacements for its electronics in particular. Thats the other downfall of technology-bias.

Anyhoo, neat-o thread, you have any F-22 footage for us to compare?

Jay.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #10 on:** February 12, 2001, 01:40:00 PM »

One day, Jay, one day.

Jay_76 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 12, 2001, 03:08:00 PM »

LOL.. Didn't think so...

This reminds me of another amusing thought, perhaps best mentioned in another thread. Riddle me this: what year did the US officially announce and unveil the F-117 Stealth Fighter (i.e. to civilian airshows and the like)? Corollary: What year was the Century (F-100+) series of jets abandoned as a designation?

Jay.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #12 on:** February 12, 2001, 03:49:00 PM »

Guessing 1978 for F117...btw, do you know why the F117 is 'sharp corners'(ie faceted) and B2 is 'round surfaces'? Both are radar reflective, but why the difference? It's very simple if you think about it...

Cabby · « **Reply #13 on:** February 12, 2001, 03:50:00 PM »

The major advantage US fighter-aircraft have over their opponents?

The Pilots.

Superior training, initiative, tactics, and electronic warfare capability will win every time.

You don't have to worry about "landing in a cornfield" when you have cleared the skies of enemy aircraft in a matter of minutes.

No F15 Eagle has ever been lost to hostile fire.

Cabby

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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"

[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 02-12-2001).]

Jay_76 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 12, 2001, 08:05:00 PM »

Quote

do you know why the F117 is 'sharp corners'(ie faceted) and B2 is 'round surfaces'

The cheap answer out is "radar cross-section" for both... I'd hazard a guess that the F117's sharp corners accentuate the lack of many "right angled" surfaces, i.e. perpendicular to the horizon (IIRC, the most vulnerable time for the F117 is when bomb bay doors are open, giving a perpendicular surface for a radar return). The B2 I'm not near as familiar with, but I'd guess the same would be true. Why one's rounded and the other flat? No idea, but I'd love to be enlightened.

Quote

The major advantage US fighter-aircraft have over their opponents?

The Pilots.
Superior training, initiative, tactics, and electronic warfare capability will win every time.

I don't disagree, but I think the US is more topheavy in the EW aspect than in the pilot's training. The advances made in US training since Korea (notably in the formation of Top Gun schools teaching ACM!) came because someone recognized pilots were too heavily reliant on technologic crutches that CAN be defeated. Thus, its good to be able to land and take off from a flat surface thats not vacuumed clean of grit, or land with gear up without exploding (and live to fight another day) or not have your fighter just fall out of the sky because of some glitch in the system.

Anyhoo... all due respect Cabby, I don't think as you do. There's world competitions among AF's every year in aeriel combat capability: anyone know where we might find the winners for the last 10-15 or so?

Anyhow... 1978 for the F117, what year was it unveiled to the public for shows, etc?

Jay