Author Topic: U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate  (Read 2479 times)

Offline AquaShrimp

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1706
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #90 on: June 12, 2006, 02:41:01 AM »
Ok, this should be the "end all" link for the discussion

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Zielwirkung/military_bullet_wound_patterns.html

This site discusses wound characteristics of the M16 bullets compared to AK-47s, AK-74s, US and German 7.62mm rounds.

In short, the M-16 only produces massive wounds in its victims out to 170 yards.  CAR-15s (carbine version) were unable to produce massive wounds even at short ranges.  A velocity of at least 900m/s was needed for good bullet fragmentation.  Bullet rotation (1 in 7 twist vs 1 in 12 twist) had no diminishing effect on round fragmentation.  Rounds that tumbled in the air produced larger than normal wounds.

The German 7.62mm round far surpasses the U.S. 7.62mm round.  The German round fragments and causes a massive wound.  The U.S. 7.62mm doesn't.

Offline Maverick

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13920
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #91 on: June 12, 2006, 12:41:19 PM »
Saburo, How did you determine paralax error on those sights? Just curious as I am interested in an optical sight for a couple of my rifles.
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
Author Unknown

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #92 on: June 12, 2006, 01:02:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Saburo, How did you determine paralax error on those sights? Just curious as I am interested in an optical sight for a couple of my rifles.


I set mine up by 'zeroing' the iron sights. Then I bench clamp the rifle with the optical sight, and set point of aim for the sight the same for the optics as the sight. Then I set my head up in the usual position and observe clarity of field of focus. Often, when the optics are correctly adjusted for point of aim, the field of view is blurry or 'double imaged' even when focus is transited to extreme limits of adjustment... parallax problem.

Of course, I could be totally wrong.. never bothered much with reflex optics.. not my cup of tea. On the ones I've played with, I've found the reflex sights decent up to about 75 yards.. beyond that, no better than good iron battle sights... worse even,  since the damn things usually pull your head up from a decent cheek weld. I prefer a large diamater red dot (52-54mm) 2x scope for carbines, particulary in 'scout' configuration.

Of course,  a decent RIFLE deserves a decent scope. ;)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline SaburoS

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2986
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #93 on: June 12, 2006, 01:33:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Saburo, How did you determine paralax error on those sights? Just curious as I am interested in an optical sight for a couple of my rifles.


Look at the linked example of no paralax error:


aimpoint

If your gun is sighted, that target dot should stay on target and not creep around. Simple way of testing in the store is just put the sight on a solid surface and pick a target about 100 yards out. Make sure you have well defined edges so you can gauge any straying off target as you move your head/eyes left/right, up/down, and diagonally. Make sure the sight does not move at all while doing this. Make sure you use both eyes (your binocular vision) and focus on the target! The key to this type of speed sight is quick sight aquisition. It's second to none in this regard.
Now try that test with the cheap sights to see the difference.
If you get some error, do not buy/use that sight as you'll probably be missing your target.
Also do the above test where you'll have your eyes distance from the sight the equivilent from shooting from a rifle and offhand from a pistol.

I chose the EOTech as it passed the Army's tough standards (beware some defective units out there though) and because if the shape of the targeting ring/dot combo. My second choice was going to be Aimpoint's M2 or M3. It's all about preference.

When real close though all will show some type of error. Guessing it might have to do with the distance between the left and right eyes and using our binocular vision (just a guess as I've not researched it though).
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline SaburoS

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2986
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #94 on: June 12, 2006, 01:53:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime

Of course, I could be totally wrong.. never bothered much with reflex optics.. not my cup of tea. On the ones I've played with, I've found the reflex sights decent up to about 75 yards.. beyond that, no better than good iron battle sights... worse even,  since the damn things usually pull your head up from a decent cheek weld. I prefer a large diamater red dot (52-54mm) 2x scope for carbines, particulary in 'scout' configuration.

Of course,  a decent RIFLE deserves a decent scope. ;)


Hangtime,
You deserve a good reflex sight! You gotta try out the EOTech or Aimpoint. Different systems but once you get used to the idea of focusing on the target with both eyes and not the sight, you'll be a convert :D
Just zero it for where you expect to be shooting it. If you know your ballistics, you'll be able to compensate. Like most scopes, you'll need to get a cheek pad if you're not getting a proper cheek weld.
Red dot and reflex sights are unlike scopes and iron sights. the virtue of its design allows a much faster sight aquisition. Having an accurate/error free one will asure you're on target everytime (provided you do your marksmanship part).

In every instance, everytime I saw my opponents in Sat's games, I shot them before they shot me. Everytime. There were 3 instances where I got sloppy and didn't hit them on my first try, my fault, not the sight's. I ended up getting them on the followup though.

Keep in mind this was my very first day playing Airsoft. My 37 years experience of shooting paid off. All of my opponents were almost half my age.
We "old" guys have a game we can actually compete in using tactics and marksmanship :D
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline GtoRA2

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8339
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #95 on: June 12, 2006, 02:10:00 PM »
I really like my EOtech site, I shoot better with it on, but then again I am a ****y rifle shot.



I do want to get a real scout scope for it the M1A as well.

I get my M1 Garand back this weekend from the X along with all my other guns!


I only have to drive to Grants Pass OR to do it.

Offline GtoRA2

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8339
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #96 on: June 12, 2006, 02:12:26 PM »
Sub
 You in the bay area? Where did you do the Airsoft?

Offline Maverick

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13920
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #97 on: June 12, 2006, 02:16:14 PM »
Thanks Saburo :aok
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
Author Unknown

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #98 on: June 12, 2006, 02:41:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
Hangtime,
You deserve a good reflex sight! You gotta try out the EOTech or Aimpoint. Different systems but once you get used to the idea of focusing on the target with both eyes and not the sight, you'll be a convert :D
Just zero it for where you expect to be shooting it. If you know your ballistics, you'll be able to compensate. Like most scopes, you'll need to get a cheek pad if you're not getting a proper cheek weld.
Red dot and reflex sights are unlike scopes and iron sights. the virtue of its design allows a much faster sight aquisition. Having an accurate/error free one will asure you're on target everytime (provided you do your marksmanship part).

In every instance, everytime I saw my opponents in Sat's games, I shot them before they shot me. Everytime. There were 3 instances where I got sloppy and didn't hit them on my first try, my fault, not the sight's. I ended up getting them on the followup though.

Keep in mind this was my very first day playing Airsoft. My 37 years experience of shooting paid off. All of my opponents were almost half my age.
We "old" guys have a game we can actually compete in using tactics and marksmanship :D


Yup! Good points.. and I'll get around to playing with them 'seriously' for the kids's carbines.. the SKS's and the AK's. I have a very nice scout (pistol) red dot on my carbine length enfield.. I like it. I've taught myself to work ALL my scopes 'both eyes open'.. still not 'automatic' but my accuracy hasn't suffered a bit. Works VERY well on the red dot.. and that enfield is one heluva fast boltie. I'm up to being able to shoot and cycle the bolt with out taking the rifle down from my cheek... and with the 12 round mag, I can lay extremly accurate fire at damn near the same rate as a semi-auto.

Thanks for the parallax detail.. I learned something good today.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Dago

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5324
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #99 on: June 12, 2006, 05:03:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
What's the overall weight of the weapon w/the EOTech?
Man, that's sweet.
If I didn't have my L1A1 congo mod, I'd go for one of those (drool).
 


Weight is about 11lbs 1 oz with fully loaded magazine.  Add about 3 pounds with forward grip and bipod.
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Brenjen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1514
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2006, 05:24:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
The air pocket behind the enclosed tip is nothing new. The 168 grain HPBT match has been used for our snipers for decades. It's more for the shape of the bullet for the given weight that dictates that air pocket.

The original 55 grain M193 round was such an underperformer. The first instances of firing the 62 grain SS109 round resulted in tumbling in the air. They then gave up the "controlled" tumbling concept and wanted to stabilize the bullet to increase its consistency. Introduced the 1 in 7" rifling. great stability but found severe wear to be the result (as little as 3000 rounds fired, the barrels lost a lot of accuracy). They then switched to their happy medium of 1 in 9" twist.
Ah gotta love the compromise (sarcasm).

I don't know of any army that teaches their troops to not aim center mass (excluding snipers of course). The results of hitting arms or legs is due to poor marksmanship. Shoot to kill, not shoot to wound.


 You're preaching to the choir.

Edit: A buddy of mine used to complain about the M-16's "sh**ing where it eats" LOL. I really have to hand it to the nazis Sturmgewehr 44 & Kalashnikov's AK design; the AK is brutally simple & an old favorite of mine but I love my M-14 more. I'm not worried about a long term survival situation, I have enough reliable weapons & I can only use one at a time;)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 05:33:44 PM by Brenjen »

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2006, 05:36:33 PM »
The 5.56 is quite adequate....on coyotes.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline SaburoS

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2986
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2006, 06:16:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Sub
 You in the bay area? Where did you do the Airsoft?

I live in San Jose now.
I played at Operation Paintball (they have an indoor Airsoft field) in Hayward.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Pongo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #103 on: June 12, 2006, 09:27:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
This is your answer:





My next rifle build I think will be this one, just for fun.


I think I would take a normal M14 over the pimped one.

Offline rabbidrabbit

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3907
U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2006, 09:42:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
I think I would take a normal M14 over the pimped one.


I think the point of the rifle is to be used as tool.  As opposed to being masturbated on.