CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody

[tedrbr]

The problem is not so much that the CV's are weak.

The problem is the way carrier operations are conducted in the game, and the MA in particular.

CV's operate without a CAP overhead to defend them.  They operate without patrols being sent out.

CV's are often run right into the range of shore batteries where they get pounded.  Or right on top of enemy PT spawn points.

Rarely do CV operations have enough pilots to do the job.

Dual account dweeds will sometimes take control of a CV group with their shadow account, and either run it into suicidal range of enemy guns, or send it on an overnight cruise to the far ends of the map where they are of no use for the whole next day.

As long as people continue to do stoopid things with carriers, you will lose them easily.  I have no sympathy any more or those attempting carrier operations.  

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by tedrbr
The problem is not so much that the CV's are weak.

Rarely do CV operations have enough pilots to do the job.

 

True enough.  Real Life, they had what, 60 - 80 planes on board?  Maybe 4 squadrons of fighters?  If we had just 8 friendly planes capping a CV at all times, they would be survivable.  Of course, you'd give away the position of the ship as soon as you upped.

[Oleg]

Originally posted by Mayhem
However level bombing was almost ineffective, Mainly because a CV would just rapidly zig zag to evade falling bombs.

You are wrong. Real CV could not evade from falling bombs, that just impossible. Zig-zag, circles and other evasive maneuvers purposes to make aiming harder, not to evade from falling bombs.

Actual reasons why level bombers was absolutely ineffective against ships are:
1) Level bombing was far less accurate in RL
2) Only direct bomb hit can make any significant damage to capital ships.

[Fencer51]

Originally posted by Oleg
You are wrong. Real CV could not evade from falling bombs, that just impossible. Zig-zag, circles and other evasive maneuvers purposes to make aiming harder, not to evade from falling bombs.

Sigh..

Photos of B17 Attack on Japanese CV

[lazs2]

stoney... You obviously do not "love" the cv's the way most of us do.  

We don't enjoy them just to take off and land on.  We like em because, unlike you... we feel the bases are too far apart and that the CV's offer the best chance for a good fight/furball..

You want to have them far enough to get high enough for a "good defense"  I want em close enough that I can see dots of the fight when my wheels leave the ground.

I don't want to set auto climb and then go mow the lawn, come back and see how close the fight is.   Any climbing over 2k above ground level is a waste of time for me.

WWII was boring.  I don't want to imitate that part.  When you read a book on WWII aerial combat...  they don't have 90% of the book telling about preflights and all the cool things you do for a 4 hour flight and then 10% or less about seeing an enemy and maybe one page describing a fight...

nope that would be a boring book... just like it is a boring game.

People those who enjoy furballs or cv to "cap" or "defend"  nothing could be more boring and useless... a sucide fluffer will get through...  you simply waste hours doing cap.   How would you get anyone to do it?

Even the mouse weilders won't fly cap to defend their ord or troops... no one will do it.  

Fields are too far apart and CV's go down too easy.    

You should have it made tho because there is usually a CV at some useless (for getting into a fight) spot that you can practice taking off and landing on.  

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

[CHECKERS]

Bottom Line.....

   

"Fields are too far apart and CV's go down too easy. "

      Bob/CHECKERS

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by lazs2
stoney... You obviously do not "love" the cv's the way most of us do.  

...we feel the bases are too far apart and that the CV's offer the best chance for a good fight/furball..

I can appreciate this--you pull it up right off the coast of an enemy base, and fight's on!  So, in this situation, you definitely want it bulletproof.  The problem is that as soon as the ships are off the coast, they immediately turn into a target for somebody in level bombers, regardless of the quality of the furball fight.

But, what if you had two bases that were 8k away from each other, had no ack, indestructable hangars, and no map room.  That would probably suit what you wanted too, right?

For me, I like to play a tactical type game, and yes, it sometimes does involve some droning from pt. A to B.  But, I don't want a "harder" CV, because its a double-edged sword.  I have a hard enough time negotiating the 5 inch ack in a dive-bomber as it is.

I think what you want is a way to quickly get into a furball, not necessarily a CV?  Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but if there was a way to insulate two bases so the base grabbers couldn't interfere with those that wanted to furball, that's what you're looking for, right?

[MOIL]

Also..............

A lot of the WWII ships and carriers had a LOT more AA guns manned by crews.

We have what,  6-7 mannable positions? Most of the ships had anywhere from 25 to 40 twin and quad mount 40mm Bofors guns, 40-50 20mm guns and 8-12 5" guns. Which were all manned by crews.

my 2 cents

[lazs2]

No stoney.. I do not want fields 8 miles apart...  I want a lot more fields 3/4 of a sector apart.  this is the minumum set, not by me, but by HT.   The mapmakers (save fester) were all strat types who wouldn't know a furball if they seen one so... we have what we have...

That is why CV's and FT are so popular.  Look at any map where a CV get's close to a base... some of the best fights till the lightbulb fragile cv goes down..

And... I fly mostly FM2 so I do like to take off from carriers and.... even if it is an enemy carrier I like it that I will be fighting carrier planes.   Not head on el gays or high alt B & Z timid typhies or peee 51's   No newbies clumsily wrestling spit 16's around in some clueless manner or another.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by lazs2
.... even if it is an enemy carrier I like it that I will be fighting carrier planes.   Not head on el gays or high alt B & Z timid typhies or peee 51's   No newbies clumsily wrestling spit 16's around in some clueless manner or another.

 

Never thought about it that way.  Sorry I went off on a tangent...

[Nifty]

my only request is just don't kill the CV so damned fast.

We're not "shades" or "traitors" when we say on ranged "don't kill the CV yet!"  We're just trying to enjoy the best fight that the map is offering at the time for as long as we can.  I don't play in the MA that much at all, and when I do find a good CV furball, I want it to last as long as possible.

Aside from that...  bombing should be made a little more difficult.  Dive bombing with B-17s, Lancs, etc shouldn't be allowed (restrict it to level flight bombing only.)  The bombs should have to actually land on the ship to damage the ship (if this isn't already the case.)  Ack should be very lethal to a buff formation if it's not got significant alt.

anyways, going home for the weekend.  

[bj229r]

If a set of lancs or B24's flies over a cv under 12k, it gets sunk 4 X outta 5--usually from prox hits, not from actual hits

[Ratnick]

There is one real life similarity I'm reminded of, a CV without a full time captain will get sunk quickly.

[Mayhem]

Originally posted by Ratnick
There is one real life similarity I'm reminded of, a CV without a full time captain will get sunk quickly.

A captain without a brain will get it sunk faster.

[EagleDNY]

Like this thread in general - here are 2 easily programmible suggestions to help the CVs:

1.  No Dar Bars in "all water" sectors.  Since there are no ground observers, eliminate the dar bar so that the CV position is less obvious.  This doesnt stop the spies from revealing the CV position, but it would help.

2.***  Make the level bombers bomb-release not work unless the autopilot is active.  This eliminates the suicide lancs and b24s diving into a carrier and releasing a load inverted at 2k, and saves the CV from the single kamikaze buff driver.  Level bombers are just that - level bombers.  If a bomber is not rated for  dive bombing (and there a couple of multi-engine types that were so rated), then put a flag on it so that the bomb release wont occur unless the bomber is level.  

EagleDNY
$.02