Author Topic: Turning off your radar blip  (Read 2034 times)

Offline Kurt

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Turning off your radar blip
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2006, 03:37:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cav58d
You just treated yourself bud because that was exactly what I was argueing


You don't get it do you...

The dots on the friendly radar are there BECAUSE the flights were in voice comms with the controllers, not because they were on radar and identified via IFF.  

let go your modern mind...

If you have a fuzzy spot, and a friendly squadron commander saying that is his location and he doesn't have any bandits in sight, then you draw green dots.  Simple.  

If you have a fuzzy spot and none of your friendlies are there... then they are red...

see?

This is NOT exactly what you said... You were making sarcastic remarks about how the radar knew you were there even though the technology of the day couldn't do that.... I'm telling you that there were humans interpreting that data - and the dots you see in AH represent those human interpretations.

I understand, thats foreign to you... but that is how it was done.
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Offline RAIDER14

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Turning off your radar blip
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2006, 03:43:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Nope will not change.

Offline Debonair

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Turning off your radar blip
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2006, 04:10:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cav58d
The IFF signal? In WWII they barely had radar that showed a fuzzy line on a scope and you think they could ident a bandit from a friendly? Wow.

They knew where the friendly guys were because friendlies call you on the radio and say.. 'blue flight is 75 miles south west of Dover." Enemies are all the little fuzzy spots that don't bother to call and give their position, heading and speed. That is your basic WWII IFF.... If you have evidence of a more sophisticated system in wide use (not testing) I challenge you to post a link.

AH is not a 'war simulation' and IFF didn't come along until transponders were perfected some time after the war.



you should actually pick up and read a history book someday instead of making incorrect statements and unsubstantiated opinions all the time.

Offline Kurt

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Turning off your radar blip
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2006, 11:15:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Debonair
you should actually pick up and read a history book someday instead of making incorrect statements and unsubstantiated opinions all the time.


Post the specific reference and I'll go read it.  Don't make assumptions about what I have actually learned at what I have not.  Especially in the context of a generic remark where you're not even telling me why you think I'm wrong, or on which point.  I've read plenty and I have never seen any reference to an IFF system in WWII with the exception of voice coms.

In the case of the British system, all of the plotting was done on a table moving little wooden markers around based on the information collected via the simple radar system they had, and the radio discussions with flights in the air.  The only thing they knew with certainty was the position of the friendlies.  Enemies were the unexplained spots.  This information is available in MANY books, most recent one I read on it was Duel of Eagles by Townsend.  You know - Because I don't read or anything.  That book goes into EXHAUSTIVE description of how Fighter Command worked and exactly what the radar was capable of.  Even if I didn't read, you can hardly turn on History channel or Military channel without the same information being spoon fed to you.

All the time I do this?  Sure, what ever.  You know, when I go back and read many of my posts I see in there pretty much every time a sentence that says something too the effect of 'If you have information that proves me wrong, please post it - I'd rather learn it than be ignorant' - And in every case where someone has done that I have thanked them for the information.

I did the same thing here.  So give me the reference and I'll go read it.

You're talking about the same war where the first wave at Pearl Harbor went unopposed because a radar operator thought they were the flight of B17's coming in from San Francisco... Radar SO sophisticated that they can't tell a flight big friendly aluminium bombers from a flight of small wooden enemies..
« Last Edit: June 17, 2006, 11:50:54 AM by Kurt »
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Offline Greebo

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Turning off your radar blip
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2006, 03:02:33 PM »
The British invented IFF in the late 30s and Ferranti began deliveries in November 1939. The RAF was fully equipped by the time of the Battle of Britain. IFF Mark I used feedback to transmit a signal to the radar ground station when it was interrogated at the correct frequency. To the radar operator this showed up as an oscillating spike against the steady enemy spikes. Early IFFs were not totally reliable, so back up info from observers etc. was used for confirmation if possible.

Later marks of IFF worked with all the different Allied radars and were harder to jam. Despite this, by the middle of the war the Germans were using signals from Allied IFF to help track the aircraft.

The Tizard Mission disclosed IFF to the USA in September 1940 and they adopted the Mark II IFF unchanged as the SCR-535 and the later Mark III as the SCR-515.

German IFF development was a bit of a disaster. Each of their radar manufacturers came up with a system, but none of them worked with the other radars. So Erstling worked with Freya, Stichling and Zwilling with Wurzburg and so on. The systems were being fitted by 41 but only gave a bearing and not range. Another problem was the ground radar could only handle one friendly plane at a time. The RAF were jamming German IFF by 43 and the German pilots had no faith in the system.

Not sure about the other combatants use of IFF.

Source is the book "A radar history of WW2" by Louis Brown. A quick Google also revealed this site:
http://www.vectorsite.net/ttwiz5.html#m3
« Last Edit: June 17, 2006, 03:35:06 PM by Greebo »

Offline Kurt

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Turning off your radar blip
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2006, 04:10:45 PM »
See, now THAT is how you present an argument that I'm talking out my butt!

Thanks Greebo.  Considering that it came on the scene in '39, I'm surprised I haven't noticed references to it before.. Especially in the book I mentioned above as it probably spend 75 pages describing the British system.

Thanks again Greebo.
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Offline Bronk

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Turning off your radar blip
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2006, 04:22:31 PM »
Hehe now waiting to see how cav spins his argument next .
This should be good.

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Offline cav58d

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Turning off your radar blip
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2006, 04:57:26 PM »
I dont know why you are under the impression that I think the radar was SO sophistaced because it is the complete opposite...

And your claim about states paying for spys is ludacris...No one is paying for you in virtual aces high...
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Offline Bronk

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Turning off your radar blip
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2006, 05:03:46 PM »
Priceless
I like how cav avoids greebo's post and goes right to the paying of spies .
:rofl :rofl

Spin baby spin.


:D  have a nice day



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Offline Debonair

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Turning off your radar blip
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2006, 06:39:58 PM »
the appendecies of has some good info and every book i've come across by nightfighter pilots or R/Os have all been great reads.  



never found one by a P-61 driver, though.
i get the impression that a lot of what makes up the modern air traffic control system was in place by the end of the war
« Last Edit: June 17, 2006, 06:42:47 PM by Debonair »

Offline Kurt

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Turning off your radar blip
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2006, 07:59:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by cav58d
No one is paying for you in virtual aces high...


I pay for me.

And if I were a spy (I'm not, I dislike 'em too) I'd pay 14.99 to see whats going on behind enemy lines.  For the people who have forgotten to have fun, and only look at it as a thing to try to win... To the score padders.. Those types... Its worth 'buying a spy' for $14.99.

I don't like it, but I don't think HT should be expected to actively police it.  Think of the man hours they'd have to invest in that just to catch people who might be spies... Or... Could just have two accounts in a household... such as a father and son.

I'd rather they just spend the time working on real enhancements.
--Kurt
Supreme Exalted Grand Pooh-bah Clown
Clowns of Death <Now Defunct>
'A pair of jokers beats a pair of aces'