You think 51 better than the 38 huh?

[hubsonfire]

Originally posted by Widewing
Beating a N00b doesn't prove the P-38 is better than the P-51. Fight and beat someone at your skill level and you could make that case, but these fights don't.

[Chalenge]

I dont know that I have figured out how to kill a P38 everytime I see one but I do know when someone is easily distracted or doesnt understand when they control a fight and when they dont.

[LEDPIG]

P-38 is one of the easiest planes to kill in the game, that's why everybody chases them. We look like a big fat group of bombers to people. However a P-38 flown by a pilot who knows his tactics and skills is a much harder target. But a Spit 16 flown by a even a dumb pilot is hard to match in a P-38. So many other planes have the upper hand you have to win by skills and smarts alone, and know when to keep your speed/altitude advantage and when to blow it. Also running in the 38 is part of the technique as well as knowing when to reengage.

[storch]

I was in the DA when this occurred, he was spanking noobs none of them would fight me.

[Schutt]

Nice flying Hoarch, shows how a good merge wins a superior position pretty quick. But as others pointed out i think a P 51 vs P51 or P38 vs P38 fight would have had the same outcome.

For pure dogfighting you can pretty much dodge the pony if hes fast and outfly him if both get slow or you get a nice postion. Still the pony is a pretty good fighter... maybe the p38L and J should get perked and a eny rating of 5 when they are so much better than the pony

[SuperDud]

Originally posted by Widewing
Beating a N00b doesn't prove the P-38 is better than the P-51. Fight and beat someone at your skill level and you could make that case, but these fights don't.
 

Agreed. No offense to epic, but his skills aren't nearly to Hoarach's skill. I personnally think the P38 has the adv. in a 1vs1, with equal pilots. But the films just showed a guy without much expereince getting beat by a vet. Heck, you coulda takin just about any plane and beat him.

[Hoarach]

Originally posted by storch
I was in the DA when this occurred, he was spanking noobs none of them would fight me.

Sorry storch about last night, when we were about to engage my comp froze up and had reboot it up.  Went back to the DA and you werent there.  Wanted to post a message about it last night but forgot about it.

[pluck]

eh, n/m:)

[storch]

lol that explains it. well i'll prowl that arena and see if the god of aerial cartoon warfare will allow another impromtu opportunity.

[Morpheus]

sorry but isnt he a newb? no offence. Alot of people who fly the pony, really hurt the pony. They give it a bad rap.

[Hajo]

OK   historically the P51 was a better plane.  It was faster at any altitude.

Historically the P38 was almost withdrawn from the ETO because of it's performance.  They fared much better in the Pacific Theater of operations.
Towards 1944 most were deployed to the Pacific.

Historically the choice of a fight was the P51s.....even in game it's his choice if co alt......which is a huge advantage.  Both planes were easily damaged...fragile if you wish.  So the speed advantage would benefit the P51 against LW aircraft.  The P38 was slower the most later model 109s and FWs and just became a big target for the cannon 109s and 190s.  Hence the move to the PAC where it was generally faster then anything Japanese and the Japanese aircraft were more fragile then the P38 and had lighter gun packages.

This is a cartoon game....with people realizing they can get another life and an aircraft.  If I had my choice and I were a Pilot in the 8th AF....I'd choose a Jug or a Pony over the P38.  Reason?  Survivability.  Object is to live.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Hajo
OK   historically the P51 was a better plane.  It was faster at any altitude.

Historically the P38 was almost withdrawn from the ETO because of it's performance.  They fared much better in the Pacific Theater of operations.
Towards 1944 most were deployed to the Pacific.

The P-38 served in the MTO throughout the war.  The removal of the P-38 from the 8th AAF's inventory in the ETO was more of a result of the bomber mentality of the 8th AAF High Command than anything else.  

Both planes were easily damaged...fragile if you wish.[/b]

P-38 was a rather tough bird and could take quite a bit of damage, more so than the P-51.

Hence the move to the PAC where it was generally faster then anything Japanese and the Japanese aircraft were more fragile then the P38 and had lighter gun packages.[/b]

P-38 was in combat in the Pacific in April of '42 where as the P-38 didn't see combat in Europe a few months later in August when a couple of P-38s out of Iceland ran into a couple of Condors.  The success of the P-38 in the PTO had to do with it's excellent performance and long range ability.  There were more USAAF aces in the PTO flying the P-38 than P-47 and P-51 drivers combined.




ack-ack

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Hajo
OK   historically the P51 was a better plane.  It was faster at any altitude.

Historically the P38 was almost withdrawn from the ETO because of it's performance.  They fared much better in the Pacific Theater of operations.
Towards 1944 most were deployed to the Pacific.

Historically the choice of a fight was the P51s.....even in game it's his choice if co alt......which is a huge advantage.  Both planes were easily damaged...fragile if you wish.  So the speed advantage would benefit the P51 against LW aircraft.  The P38 was slower the most later model 109s and FWs and just became a big target for the cannon 109s and 190s.  Hence the move to the PAC where it was generally faster then anything Japanese and the Japanese aircraft were more fragile then the P38 and had lighter gun packages.

This is a cartoon game....with people realizing they can get another life and an aircraft.  If I had my choice and I were a Pilot in the 8th AF....I'd choose a Jug or a Pony over the P38.  Reason?  Survivability.  Object is to live.

Historically, the P-38 was a very rugged aircraft, built like a brick outhouse.
There was nothing fragile about the P-38.

Against Luftwaffe fighters, most pilots who had P-38 and P-51 experience would take the P-38 for low to medium altitude combat and the P-51 for medium to high altitude combat. Nonetheless, at about 25,000 feet, the P-38J/L models were faster than the 190s and most 109s (except the K-4). Moreover, they accelerated faster and climbed faster up there too.

P-38s and P-47s were phased out of the 8th AF during 1944. Only the 56th FG flew anything but the P-51 in 1945. Most former 8th AF Lightnings were transferred to 9th Tactical Air Force squadrons, where they remained in combat until the surrender. They proved every bit as capable as the Mustangs and the Jugs when employed with the 9th. Over in the MTO, 15th AF fighter squadrons were equally divided between P-38s and P-51s. In terms of effectiveness, there was virtually no statistical difference between types.

P-38s were in combat in the Pacific well before the type ever fired a gun in anger in the European war. Upgraded P-38Es were in combat in the Aleutians by late spring of 1942.

Both the 5th AF in the SWPA and the 15th AF in the MTO found that the odds of returning safely home with battle damage was far greater for the P-38. Redundent powerplants was the primary reason, especially when over-flying great distances of ocean.

P-38s suffered from many problems in the ETO. Combat ability wasn't one of them. The saga of the P-38 units flying out of England has been well documented and the myths debunked.

In AH2, the P-51s and the P-38s are very evenly matched, with each type having some advantages and disadvantages. Success depends largely on pilot ability, but tactical situations and things like weight of fuel, altitude and the like all will influence combat. Which is why there are no absolutes, as anything can happen.

My regards,

Widewing

[Mayhem]

I think historically the better plane depended on what job needed to be done rather then wich was better over all. That being said the same kinda applies to ah.

the 38 has good accelleration it's fast and it climbs well however it's roll sucks and it compresses easily. it has good range. However historically the p38 wasn't as good in the colder ETO enviroment. but It kicked butt in the pacific.

There are some things 38 does better then a 51 some things a 38 does better. There is also the pilot factor. I'm better in a 51 then a 38. Infact I outright suck in a 38. and there will always be good 38 pilots that can hand me arse reguardless of what I'm flying.

[Widewing]

A quick follow-up to show relative performance between the P-38J/L and the P-51B and P-51D. All performance figures represent WEP use and 25% internal fuel, zero burn.

First we have max speed at sea level... Both P-51s are considerably faster than the P-38s. Typically 359 mph and 366 mph respectively for the Mustangs, with 344 mph for both P-38s. In many situations, the P-51s can unload and extend away from the P-38s.
Advantage, Mustangs.

Acceleration from 150 mph to 300 mph favors the P-51D by a tiny bit, with times measured at 45.31 seconds for the P-51D and 45.47 seconds for the P-38J. From 150 to 250, the P-38J accelerates faster. However, the far lower drag of the P-51D comes into play as speeds increase and it hauls in and passes the P-38J just before 300 mph.
Advantage, dead heat.

Climb was measured from 1,000 feet, climbing to 5,000 feet beginning at 180 mph TAS.

P-38J: 56.82 seconds/4,223 ft per minute average
P-51D: 66.16 seconds/3,628 ft per minute average
Advantage, P-38J

Turn radius and rate of turn.

No flaps.

P-51B: 764 ft @ 18.5 degrees/sec
P-51D: 771 ft @ 17.0 degrees/sec
P-38J: 865 ft @ 16.9 degrees/sec
Advantage, Mustangs

Full flaps:

P-51B: 610 ft @ 16.7 degrees/sec
P-38J: 616 ft @ 18.7 degrees/sec
P-51D: 624 ft @ 16.7 degrees/sec
Advantage, P-38J

As you can see, advantages go back and forth.

One final thought. I have been saying ever since update 2.07, that there was no value to be gained by using more than two notches of flaps in a P-51. Adding more flaps produces minor reduction in turn radius, but huge loss of turn rate. Turn rate is, IMHO, more important than turn radius.

An example of this is the P-51B. With just two notches of flaps, it generates a turn radius of 754 feet, but its turn rate is nearly 19.2 degrees per second. Note that the P-51s can get two notches out before the P-38s can even begin to lower flaps. That's a significant, but short-lived advantage for the P-51s.

For the P-38J, using full flaps actually degrades turn radius a bit, and really kills turn rate. I'd not use full flaps for dogfighting, except to dump speed to force an overshoot.

My regards,

Widewing