Author Topic: Islam and Western Democracies  (Read 312 times)

Offline Hap

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Islam and Western Democracies
« on: June 23, 2006, 09:59:46 AM »
http://www.sydney.catholic.org.au/Archbishop/Addresses/200627_681.shtml

Here's an EXCELLENT 2,000 wd essay.  I came across it in "First Things" magazine.

It's worth the 10 mins it'll take to read it.  Don't ask for the cliff notes.  The topic is too important and the essay too well written for synopsis.

hap

Offline Hangtime

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Islam and Western Democracies
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2006, 10:48:34 AM »
Interesting read.

The critical element of education is telling in majority muslim countrys.. take a culture that is in majority poorly eductated, greatly impoverished and lambasted daily with anti-western propaganda and then give them the vote[/b].. you wind up with hostile 'democratic' governments like Iran and Palestine.. and likely Iraq. In fact, if not for a prudent military coup in Pakistan... and look whats going down in Afganistan now.. reversion to Sharia and a resurgence of the taliban.

It's a shame Seagoon ain't about as of late.. there's a wealth of knowledge on Islamic dogma in contrast to western values.

I keep getting the impression we're engaged in a cultural struggle where we will find very unliekly allies and some surprise enemies. Meanwhile the 'export democracy' idea is pretty much a failure thanks to the islamic cultural education of the target populations.

As the 'leading' western democracy we're in an ugly position.. we are expending our wealth and marrying our credibility to the concept of 'democracy' in the eastern cultures. And, as those cultures gain military means and nuclear technologies foolishly squandered by negotiation and western corporate greed..

Well, suffice to say that stephen hawking may have hit the nail square on the head. "get off the planet.. or perish".
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Sandman

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Islam and Western Democracies
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2006, 10:52:20 AM »
A most excellent read. :aok
sand

Offline lukster

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Islam and Western Democracies
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2006, 11:07:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
As the 'leading' western democracy we're in an ugly position.. we are expending our wealth and marrying our credibility to the concept of 'democracy' in the eastern cultures. And, as those cultures gain military means and nuclear technologies foolishly squandered by negotiation and western corporate greed..

Well, suffice to say that stephen hawking may have hit the nail square on the head. "get off the planet.. or perish".


While we may have some altruistic motivation for spreading democracy we obviously have some self interest in the oil in the middle east.

Muslims can be as regressive as they want so long as they have a healty fear and respect for others. There will likely come a time when we have to give up on democratizing them and instill that fear.

Offline Hangtime

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Islam and Western Democracies
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2006, 11:14:01 AM »
It seems to my uncultured and non-religiously tuned forebrain that we're engaged in a lost cause.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline lukster

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Islam and Western Democracies
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2006, 11:20:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
It seems to my uncultured and non-religiously tuned forebrain that we're engaged in a lost cause.


Only if we lose the will to persevere or do what must be done.



Found this to be humorous:

"In the past pagans sacrificed animals and even humans in vain attempts to placate capricious and cruel gods. Today they demand a reduction in carbon dioxide emissions."

Offline Hangtime

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Islam and Western Democracies
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2006, 11:52:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
Only if we lose the will to persevere or do what must be done.




Only 32% have the 'will'.. and i'm curious as to what you see as 'do what must be done'... cause if yer talkin pushing that big red button... well; yah got my vote. I worked my bellybutton off for 3/4 of a lifetime paying for those damn things, we oughta put 'em to use before some islamic country drops by 50 years from now and invades us because we still have 'weapons of mass destruction'.

Besides.. i don't wanna miss all the fun.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Neubob

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Islam and Western Democracies
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2006, 12:16:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
Only if we lose the will to persevere or do what must be done.


And what would that be?

Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
It seems to my uncultured and non-religiously tuned forebrain that we're engaged in a lost cause.


I'd have to agree. Islam is not a religion of peace, understanding or social temperance. Whether the modern manifestation that grips the minds of over a billion people is a misinterpretation of the original text is not relevent outside of theological studies. For whatever reason, it is what it is, and we have to share an increasingly shrinking planet with it. Even when speaking about this 'more-liberal Hanafi school of Islamic jurisprudence', it was as if he was pleasantly surprised by their lack of religious totalitarianism. Imagine that, blasphemy shouldn't be punishable by the state! What a revelation! "No Faraz, we're not going to report Saiid to the police because he dared to wonder, outloud, if Muhummad had help from his friends in the drafting of the Koran." A brave new world indeed.

Frankly, I prefer modern paganism, as this Aussie bible-thumper refered to it(because going to church is gonna make us all feel a whole lot fuzzier about the Ozone layer, climatic shifts and potential Earth-killing asteriods), to anything where any action, no matter how absurdly hostile, can ulitimately be justified by the phrase 'in the name of god'.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2006, 12:30:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Neubob
And what would that be?


Whatever it takes. Maybe just keeping troops in Iraq long enough to give democracy a foothold. However, it may mean something more severe. If Afghanistan were to revert to Taliban rule and launch another attack or support those who did then no more troops, let the missiles fly. Same goes for any other Middle Eastern country.

If the Muslims in the US riot or turn terrorist as a result then we send them all packing. Either to from where they came or Allah. Makes little difference to me. Like I said, we can win this. Just depends on what we're willing to do.

What is the alternative to winning? I think you're being very naive if you think Islam will settle for anything less than full domination of a weaker rival.

Offline Neubob

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Islam and Western Democracies
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2006, 12:58:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
I think you're being very naive if you think Islam will settle for anything less than full domination of a weaker rival.


I'd have to agree with you on this point, but I also don't think that they see us as weak, necessarily. They know full well, or at least they should have some suspicion, that as far as this world goes, when it comes down to it, we have the option that they do not.

This is no longer the time of the Crusades, when they can match us equally on the field of combat. Those times are far gone. Their technological domination ended centuries ago, and besides their apparent willingness to act nutty and sell us oil, they have very little to turn to. When push comes to shove, as it did, we simply take the oil and they either die or surrender in droves.

We are not weak to them, what we are is bound, at least on the surface, by certain codes, be they moral codes, or codes dicated by international law, or, for that matter, by international opinion. For example, on 9/12, it would have been utterly inconcievable for us to pick a random target in Riyad and slam a couple cruise missiles into it. They are not bound by such codes. Attacks have happened and, likely, will happen, and all they have to do is officially denounce the act, all the while secretly supporting, perhaps even plotting such courses of action. By contrast, a group of our soldiers is accused of harming a civilian in a warzone and the whole world starts shaking heads, pointing fingers, demanded blood.

Fact is, the 'I carry a bigger stick, and I use it too' approach has worked. One of my childhood memories was of the nightly news reporting that US warplanes had bombed Quadaffi. A tit for tat strike and where is that camel ****er today? Not a peep. Immasculated, and silenced. Whatever he does today he does in secret, and certainly without the popular following he once had.

No, I do not think they see us as weak. They see us as limited by our own self-proclaimed civility. Unlike them, we have a vested interest in THIS world. We've built up a big,  intricate, diversely-profitable society, and we'd like to continue for as long as possible. With the exception of pumping oil and constructing monuments to honor their god, their money and their excesses, they've built nothing, done nothing to advance humanity. They're desperate, with nothing to lose, and a limited means of getting attention.  They have not seen American desperation yet, and their leaders know it. Personally, I do NOT want to see it, because no bunker in the world will be deep enough for the day when we resort to 9/11 style tactics on a superpower scale.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 01:03:17 PM by Neubob »

Offline eagl

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Islam and Western Democracies
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2006, 01:19:15 PM »
I've never met a muslim who would disagree that infidels must convert or die.  Not that the ones I've met actually have the guts to follow through on general principle, but they still believe that the overall guidance is convert or die.  Everything else is inshallah, god's will.

Sure makes you wonder about when your neighbor is going to decide that it's god's will that your house go up in flames one day...
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Eagler

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no need for nukes at this early stage of the game ..
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2006, 01:27:31 PM »
the next big meet should have a tomahawk or two drop in on them...
3 or 4 meetings & tomahawks later, they'd come around ... if not, we have plenty more tomahawks for them to say hello too ...
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


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