JSF vs the Eurofighter....is the Eurofighter project dying/dead?

[Replicant]

Just got some prices on the Typhoon from the Eurofighter website:-

The costs ...
In January 1998, Eurofighter GmbH and EuroJet Turbo GmbH signed production, production investment and support contracts for these 620 aircraft worth ~$32B (billion U.S dollars), pricing each aircraft at some £33M ($50M). In a written response by Robert Walmsley (the Chief Executive for Defence Procurement in the UK) to a House of Commons question on the 6th of July 1999 stated that the current total UK program cost at current (1998/99) prices was £16.1B. Assuming that R&D still accounts for £4.4B (as it did for 1997/98 prices) each RAF aircraft (inclusive of all non-R&D costs) sits at £50.5M ($79.6M). According to the RAF the actual unit cost of each aircraft will be around £40-45M ($62.4M-70.2M). Why three different prices? Well it must be remembered that no standard Eurofighter exists, each nation can modify the basic system to fit their requirements. For price comparisons though a good estimate would be between £40million and £50million since the RAF model will offer the highest basic specification.

According to the F22 website, the F22 should be around $83million compared to the $70.2million RAF version of the Typhoon (be costly if it works out at the $79million price!).  

There are variations of the price of the F22 which is between $70million and $110million and I believe this has something to do with the difference in F22s that are going to be ordered.  Originally it was going to be for about 700-800 aircraft, but now stands at 339 aircraft.

So, the prices are not too far apart and until they actually go up for sale we won't know exactly just how much they'll both cost.

Regards

Nexx

[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: Replicant ]

[Soda]

The GAO (General Accounting Office) for the US lists the price of the F-22 at $40.8-$48.6 billion for 339 aircraft.  That equates to a unit cost of $120-$143 million/aircraft.

 

From GAO office document on F22 costs:
Both Office of the Secretary and Air Force cost estimators projected F-22
production costs that exceeded the congressional cost limitation of $39.8
billion in effect at that time. In 1999, after considering the potential of
all the cost reduction plans, the Air Force estimated F-22 production costs
at $40.8 billion, and the Office of the Secretary of Defense estimated
production costs at $48.6 billion. Both estimates were based on the
production of 339 aircraft.

The govt seems to figure it can reduce this number though by cost cutting measures and creative purchasing (stockpiling of materials).  They suggest industry should be able to meet a price figure in the range of $71 million/copy.  That sounds a little optimistic if you ask me since that could be as little as half price.

For comparison, the F18D would cost $28 million to manufacture (when last manufactured) and the F18E would be $64 million (in 1997 dollars) because of the reduced buy level. F15 aircraft were procured through 1998 at a unit cost of $46 million. (All GAO numbers).

A F-22 at $71 million would be quite the deal if it is possible.  Still, I doubt that they can slash the price that much and bet the real cost will still be around $100 million/aircraft.

-Soda

[LtHans]

................ergo the reason for the JSF project.

Cut costs.

The JSF was specifically designed to be cheaper than most comparable fighters.

The information I have said a study by the appropriations commitee in the US government figures at the current rate of fight plane costs, the USAF could afford only a single fighter in 2050.

So, no more super expensive planes.  Sure, make them better, but don't bother if it is more expensive than the gear we have now.  It would make more sense to keep buying F-15s and F-16s otherwise.

300 F-22s and 3,000 F-35 JSFs.  There will be ten JSFs for every F-22.

[LtFrans]

In reponse to Soda,

The US is not replacing F-16's with F-F22s.

Today its like this,

"Super fighter" = F-15 in modest(?) numbers.
"Workhorse fighter" = F-16 by the boat load.

Tommorow it's going to be,

"Super fighter" = F-22 in modest numbers.(335 est.)
"Workhorse fighter" = F-35(JSF) by the boat load.(3000+ est.)

So the JSF is to the F-16 like what the F-22 is the the F-15.

I suppose you could also equate the lineages to the navy too.

Today is F-14D's supported by F-18D's.
Tommorow is F-18E's(a bigger better F-18) supported by F-35C's.

[csThor]

The reason that the Eurofighter is still around here is that Germany - though cutting costs drastically - needs a new fighter for the Luftwaffe ASAP. The old Phantoms are now over 20 years old and the MiG29 - though being a damn fine AC - are not that suitable for NATO missions. And to buy american planes is not acceptable for the german weapon industry as it would reduce their income to almost zero. You know that our Bundeswehr has some serious issues concerning aging tech and money. That we have former peace-protesters and leftist pacifists in our government doesn“t help either.  

[Soda]

I knew the JSF was not to replace the F-15, my wording just wasn't clear.  I was pointing out that to replace the F-16's you would need a lot more than the 340ish F-22's that are being bought.  Those 340 would barely replace the F-15's.  To replace all the F-18C/D's, F-16's, Harriers and A10's you'd need something that gets produced in at least 3,000 units.  Thus the reason for something cheaper than an F-22.

The F-16 was originally meant as a way to cut costs also... but as it's capabilities were increased/realized, it started to get more expensive also.

I think the Germans/Brits/Italians will do fine with the Eurofighter.  The Tornado program ran into many of the same issues as Eurofighter with each country opting for slightly different equipment fits so this is an area where they've been before.  It apppears to be a very good plane with a lot of growth potential so should serve anyone who owns them very well.  

The Germans certainly do have a problem with their aging aircraft but so do a number of other airforces in Europe right now.  I'm sure the costs of operating and maintaining planes like the Phantom are getting high.  This is a trend though with most airforces right now.  Lots of the European F-16s have gone through Mid Life Upgrades but they are still aquiring a lot of flight hours on the airframes.  The Brits have a lot of hours on their Tornado, Jaguer and Harrier airframes even though most of them have received a lot of upgrades also.  It's just time for some new airframes.  This isn't just a European issue either, the US has the same problem where a lot of their airframes have gathered a lot of hours of flight time.  The US has only been buying small numbers of replacement aircraft in recent budgets before the start of F18E and F22 production.  Now they will be starting a wholesale replacement of these with new aircraft.

-Soda

[csThor]

Well Soda but the fine difference is that the US has money where most EU countries lack it  

[Sombra]

Soda said:

 

I think the Germans/Brits/Italians will do fine with the Eurofighter.  

The sentence should be:

 

I think the Germans/Brits/Italians/spaniards will do fine with the Eurofighter.  

Greetings from Spain