Author Topic: Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil  (Read 10211 times)

Offline Guppy35

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #180 on: July 28, 2006, 05:24:52 PM »
Agreed that the ETO/MTO 38 drivers of the 1st, 14th, 82nd, and later the 20th, 55th and 479th were all 38 trained prior to going over.  It was more of an issue for folks like the 370th who had been in Jugs and were transitioned to 38Js in May of 44 in England.  

The ETO replacement pilots were for the most part single engined trained and you can see in the 38 Group Histories a disctinct difference in opinion where the 38  trained guys liked the 38s and didn't want to transition to 51 "Spam cans" and the single engined trained guys welcomed the change.  It was interesting to see that the 370th FG pilots who'd transitioned from Jugs to 38s, weren't thrilled when they transitioned from the 38s to 51s in March of 45.  And like the 56th that stuck with the Jugs instead of Mustangs, the 474th was able to stay in 38s as they preferred, getting the cast offs from the 370th to keep up their numbers.  

Also interesting is that it was the Pacific 38 guys who were transitioning on the fly more often as the 80th for example went from P39s to 38s as did the 39th, 9th and any of the others that ultimately flew 38s in the Pacific.  From memory none of the 5th AF Fighter Groups went to the Pacific with 38s to start like the ETO/MTO groups did.

For the obvious reasons, the 38 with the twin engines and range was the preferred ride of the Pacific fighter drivers with all that  overwater flying.  Something about that 2nd engine made a difference and they certainly had confidence in the 38s ability to compete with the Japanese planes they encountered.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #181 on: July 28, 2006, 06:06:32 PM »
Well, the 38 was unique in that way, that it EASILY flew on one engine.
BTW, Guppy or Bruno, would you know roughly what P38 squadron Bartley could be referring to?
There was more frustration hitting him, - the squadron also got bombed by B17's with some casualties because of it, one pilot got shot down and later died from his wounds from U.S. ack-ack, and a fligt of U.S. Spitfires most or alltogether taxied off the runway due to wrong decision in landing.
All on the way from Bone - Souk-el-Arba and onwards.
BTW, Bruno, this text of the P38's being jumped was the one I promised you before. Just so that you know.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Bruno

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #182 on: July 28, 2006, 06:28:11 PM »
I am unfamiliar with 'Bartley'. Is this a quote of his:

Quote
There was more frustration hitting him, - the squadron also got bombed by B17's with some casualties because of it, one pilot got shot down and later died from his wounds from U.S. ack-ack, and a fligt of U.S. Spitfires most or alltogether taxied off the runway due to wrong decision in landing.
All on the way from Bone - Souk-el-Arba and onwards.


..?

I am headed out for the evening and skimmed the last couple of posts. I will check my stuff later tonight.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #183 on: July 28, 2006, 06:37:40 PM »
Nope, well it's summed up from the rest of his stuff.
I have his book which is a rarity. Got to know of it from a letter he wrote to a squadmate. (Now they are both dead :() Oddly enough, I had known that Bartley was alive at the time from corresponding emails with his daughter, - she was looking for info about former squadmates!
Bartley was a bit of a celebrity, - BoB guy, crack pilot and test pilot, married to a moviestar (Deborah Kerr) and so on.
He ended up working for the BBC AFAIK, and died some6+ years ago.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #184 on: July 28, 2006, 07:52:32 PM »
Hi Guppy,

>you can see in the 38 Group Histories a disctinct difference in opinion where the 38  trained guys liked the 38s and didn't want to transition to 51 "Spam cans" and the single engined trained guys welcomed the change.  It was interesting to see that the 370th FG pilots who'd transitioned from Jugs to 38s, weren't thrilled when they transitioned from the 38s to 51s in March of 45.  

The reluctance to part with whatever fighter one has been learned to fly and fight in is purely psychological and (up to a point) has nothing to do with its objective qualities. It's absolutely necessary for survival to concentrate on the strong points of one own's mount and devise tactics that avoid the weak points, so every fighter pilot will naturally tend to tell you that his mount has superior strengths and only minor weaknesses that, if the right tactics are used, don't matter much.

When combat pilots consider their fighter superior to any other, that's the same way of guarding one's mental health that leads test pilots to attribute any fatal crash to a "pilot error" every time. Of course, the personally would not have made the fatal error. Tom Wolfe has described this very impressively in "The Right Stuff".

Additionally, that so many squadrons preferred their current ride over any other was very much a case "better the devil you know". Having to acquire a new set of skills and tactics for a new fighter requires time, and during the necessary period of trial and error, every pilot is objectively endangered, so transitions are not taken easy.

(Of course, there is a  point when the inferiority of a fighter becomes so obvious that the illusion of superiority breaks down. This had happened to the squadrons in the Pacific that flew P-39 and P-40 fighters - they couldn't get the P-38 soon enough.)

>For the obvious reasons, the 38 with the twin engines and range was the preferred ride of the Pacific fighter drivers with all that  overwater flying.  Something about that 2nd engine made a difference and they certainly had confidence in the 38s ability to compete with the Japanese planes they encountered.

Well, I'd say this was 100% a matter of confidence since no pilot in the theatre knew anything about the actual survival rates. Reputation and reality don't necessarily coincede. The Grumman Navy aircraft had a reputation for survivability, but the one Navy plane that really can be recoginzed in the post-war analysis as way tougher than the rest was the innocent-looking Douglas SBD. Likewise, the B-24 had a reputation for fragility compared to the supposedly more robust B-17, but the numbers show it was just as good or even better. The reputation the planes gained in the theatres were based on squadron-level experience, reinforced by hearsay, and comparison to other aircraft was mostly done in individual mock-fights which turned into rumours for all that were not directly involved.

OK, that's my take on the psychology of aircraft comparisons and the resulting difficulty of extracting valid information from historical opionion :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #185 on: July 28, 2006, 09:29:46 PM »
Agreed Hohun, and I do think it speaks to what happened in the ETO as the confidence in the 38 went downhill fast with the high alt troubles.  The guys operating them in the ETO til the end were operating them in the ground attack role so the high alt woes were clearly less of a concern.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #186 on: July 28, 2006, 09:47:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun

Well, I'd say this was 100% a matter of confidence since no pilot in the theatre knew anything about the actual survival rates. Reputation and reality don't necessarily coincede. The Grumman Navy aircraft had a reputation for survivability, but the one Navy plane that really can be recoginzed in the post-war analysis as way tougher than the rest was the innocent-looking Douglas SBD. Likewise, the B-24 had a reputation for fragility compared to the supposedly more robust B-17, but the numbers show it was just as good or even better. The reputation the planes gained in the theatres were based on squadron-level experience, reinforced by hearsay, and comparison to other aircraft was mostly done in individual mock-fights which turned into rumours for all that were not directly involved.

OK, that's my take on the psychology of aircraft comparisons and the resulting difficulty of extracting valid information from historical opionion :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)



I agree.  There is comfort in the thought that if you develop engine trouble you always have a back up to get you home.


ack-ack
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Offline Bruno

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #187 on: July 29, 2006, 06:39:58 PM »
Luftwaffe Victories Against Lockheed P-38 Lightning (PDF)


This list is compiled from the loss lists presented on Tony Wood's Combat Claims &  Casualties Lists

It should be noted that these lists are incomplete and that the claims, even though they are confirmed, may not mean an actual loss.

YMMV
« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 06:42:15 PM by Bruno »

Offline Guppy35

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #188 on: July 29, 2006, 07:09:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
Luftwaffe Victories Against Lockheed P-38 Lightning (PDF)


This list is compiled from the loss lists presented on Tony Wood's Combat Claims &  Casualties Lists

It should be noted that these lists are incomplete and that the claims, even though they are confirmed, may not mean an actual loss.

YMMV


Interesting stuff.  I have the histories of the 82nd and 1st FGs who flew in the MTO, but not the 14th.

Just checking on a couple of the early dates.  

On November 28, 1942 the LW claimed 7 P38s.  Neither the 1st or 82nd flew that day so they'd all have to be 14th FG losses.  

On December 3, 1942 the LW claimed 9 P38s.  The 1st FG lost 3 that day and the 82nd didn't fly, so again it's left to the 14th to have taken those other 6 losses.

It's fair to say that the 14th took the brunt of the losses during that time as they were pulled out of combat in late January 43.  They were the first 38 unit in combat and were flying ground attack/support sorties and lost over half their pilots from November to the end of January 43.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #189 on: July 29, 2006, 10:09:02 PM »
I haven't gone through many of these claims personally. However, some others have and they run into problems where the paper work with the claims was submitted on a different date then the actual 'kill' itself or where dates some how were mis-reported (dates in log books were different from the official confirmation etc..). Or it could be 'over claiming'. I will leave this up to the professional historians and researchers. See my post above in regards to Bühligen P-38 claims.

I just buy the books and read them... :D

Offline Knegel

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #190 on: July 31, 2006, 06:04:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Knegel,
Comparison at high altitude has been posted here several times. If you are unable to use search, here  is direct link. Basicly same phenomena can be found from the Widewing's post above. Comparisons on critical mach number has been posted here several times as well.

gripen


gripen,

yes, i did read this, nothing new so far. I only can repeat, the low critical mach number of the P38 is a well known handycap, nevertheless it could climb higher than the common german and japanese fighters of its time.

So we have a real handycap  and a real advantage. I still guess that between 20000 and 30000ft the relative performence of the P38 had its peak. Of course the pilot had to know the advantage and disadvantage of his plane.

btw, why the multi-role ability was never exceeded by any other WWII fighter??

Didnt the P47´s, the FW190´s and the 110(410)´s did the same and particually more??  

At least the 190 was a incredible workhorse, from fighter, nightfighter,  torpedobomber, divebomber, armned with different rockets, bombs and guns and even with a plane as Bomb below it.

Could the P38 do anything more??

Offline Charge

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« Reply #191 on: July 31, 2006, 06:39:33 AM »
25.9.1944 Lt. Focke, Wulf ? :D

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Offline gripen

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« Reply #192 on: July 31, 2006, 10:47:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel

yes, i did read this, nothing new so far. I only can repeat, the low critical mach number of the P38 is a well known handycap, nevertheless it could climb higher than the common german and japanese fighters of its time.


I have no idea what you are trying to argue; you wanted see comparison on high altitude maneuverability and I posted it (once again). If you look the dive limit chart which Widewing posted above, you can see that left side of the flight enevelope is limited by Clmax (normal stall) and right side is limited by critical mach number (resulting buffeting, tuck under or what ever).

Quote
Originally posted by Knegel

So we have a real handycap  and a real advantage. I still guess that between 20000 and 30000ft the relative performence of the P38 had its peak. Of course the pilot had to know the advantage and disadvantage of his plane.


Most of late WWII fighters had FTH above or around 20k and most of them had higher limits of the flight envelope above 20k.

gripen

Offline Damionte

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #193 on: July 31, 2006, 11:12:19 AM »
Granted that real world advatage does us no good here. Where no one climbs above 20K. Most of the bomber pilots don't even bother too. Where 90% of the fighting is done below 10K.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #194 on: July 31, 2006, 01:13:30 PM »
P38 also went lower in the business of sweeps and ground attacks. Well a ground attack in RL is usually near to the ground...:D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)