My fellow Americans

[Karnak]

Yes, my fellow Americans.  Because that is what I consider you, regardless of your political party.

I LOVE this country.  I would fight to the death to defend it and to defend your rights.  I would do this regardless of whether or not I voted for the occupant of the White House.

I have been deeply saddened to find how intolerant the Conservative movement has become towards other Americans who hold slightly different viewpoints.  F4UDOA, Jihad, Leonid, and I have subjected to some very harsh opinions on this board today.  There have been many gross exaggerations stated as fact, things that are easily disproven.  But what's the point?  I, and others, have posted documented counters to your non-documented propaganda to no effect.  What's the point in having a discussion if the other side has no intention of paying heed to reality?

I am dismayed at how cynical many of you are.  How you can believe that Al Gore or Hillary Clinton are truly evil is beyond me.  I certainly do not believe that George W Bush or Dick Cheney are evil.  There are truly evil people out there, some of them know that they are evil and some do not, but the vast, Vast majority of people are decent folks who try to be good.  I do not believe that any of the candidates are evil.  We each have our opinion on whom is misguided.  It is altogether fitting that we do so.

I do not comprehend how we have come to the point where a large part of our people believes that half of all Americans are evil.  mietla, 1776, Gunthr, Eagler, Ripsnort, could you ever vote for a Democrat?  Richard Gephart?  Sen. Robert Kerry?  If not, are we that divided now?
If the Republican candidate had been John McCain, I would have voted for him.

How can we ascribe the most dire of criminal acts to people before there is a shred of evidence?  I don't see, and never have seen, the members of this community who voted for Gore saying that it will be fraud if Bush wins.  While I would much prefer a Gore victory, I will accept a Bush victory with good grace.  Why should it be any different for you?

I have in the past months read some of the most outrageous exaggerations, distortions and lies about Liberals.  And yet, when we try to tell you the truth, you keep shouting the falsehoods into the ether.  We need to have honest communication in order to see each other as the fellow Americans that we are.

It hurts me to have this kind of strife with my countrymen.
Please, let us treat each other with respect and recognize that there is room for disagreement within our county.


1776,
I do not believe you know, at least I hope that you do not, how badly it insults me when you refer to me as "Comrade Karnak".  It is the same as me greeting you with "Sieg heil, Herr 1776".  I won't do that.  I am not a Communist and you are not a Fascist.  Lets not run off into wild exaggerations.

Eagler,
I proposed the pardon idea not as a troll, but to show how much I want the next President to be able to do his job without being hampered by endless investigations.  I want this regardless of who is President.  We need to have a time for healing.

Peace
-Karnak

[Fatty]

Woooah there Karnak.

I'm the first to admit these guys have been rather harsh, but let's not in your call for peace submit it it by saying "You all have overreacted, let us forgive you."

You've been pretty calm the entire time, but the list there has not been without its own quite outrageous statements.

[Creamo]

<It hurts me to have this kind of strife with my countrymen.
Please, let us treat each other with respect and recognize that there is room for disagreement within our county.>

Well said. Now lets unite and bomb Canada.

[Karnak]

I see your point, Fatty.

It is definitely true that I have not lived up to my own standards.  I will try to do better.

I may not have worded that as well as I had intended.  Right now I am very sad about how hardline each side has become.  I couldn't care less about how the election turns out as far as this is concerned.
I am trying to express my feelings that this is not "us versus them".  It is "us" as a nation, trying to muddle through, together, as best we can.

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 11-08-2000).]

[Fatty]

I know what you mean, but it came across one sided, almost as baiting to further the debate.

It's pretty much impossible to discuss politics without it getting out of hand, I am still suprised I ended up posting in here against my better judgement (except the electorate thread, would be a real mistake imo to kneejerk and change the way we balance population distribution and political influence).

[1776]

Comrade Karnak, painting yourself as a victim will surely generate sympathy.  Taking offence from others opinions and acting outraged shows a clear lack of the understanding of diversity.  It seems to me from this latest post that you have become the very thing you claim to despise.

Now I would like to propose a challenge for you if you feel you are up to it.  Listen to Rush Limbaugh for 6 weeks or read one of his books.  I would enjoy telling you how I differ with his assessment of the WWII generation.

BTW I have called everyone Comrade the last 2 day as I feel it is PC.

[Toad]

Karnak,

I will defer to Fatty overall.

However, there is one little bump in that post that deserves special mention.

The inference that all the "documentation" you have posted is the TRUTH and the statements/documentation posted by the opposition is FALSEHOOD is somewhat inflamatory as well.

I read all the documentation you posted. I personally never felt I was getting information engraved in stone and handed down from you know who.

It's politics, Karnak. BOTH sides lie, BOTH sides tell the truth. The art comes in mixing the two so that they become indistinguishable.

Neither side was pure....or will ever be pure....in this regard, including your sources.

[wrench]

The thing about liberals: Their idea's always always seem to intefer with my idea's about life, liberty, and happiness. Whether it be a lifestyle that MUST be acknowledged, what I am allowed to own, or even what I might see in a public place. If I go get a job, it is in full knowledge that some of my competitors will be hired because of some quota.

So you see it isn't really about thinking liberal's are evil, it is about the unequality they want, and that is evil.

As an example:

It isn't enough for some of them to be gay/lesbian, I have to aknowledge it and let you teach my kids about it too.

It isn't enough for them to have the right to an abortion, they have to have clinics, welfare, and prosecuters to chase down dad's, so no matter what they chose they are covered by me.

It isnt enough to prosecute criminals,  I must surrender my guns for the "good of all".

It isn't enough to have free press, we must show every bloody school shooting and make celebrities out of the perps.

It isn't enough the we are free, we must tell the entire world how to live and govern.

It isn't enough to make discrimmination illegal, we must establish quota's and be damned skills and qualifications, only your race/sex matters.

With liberals it is never enough, people like myself are tired of the constant battle for freedom. We are tired of special rights. Get some idea's that don't force me to change my lifestyle, get some idea's that dont try and exclude me, and we can talk.

Wrench

[Eagler]

Well said Wrench

Eagler

[LJK Raubvogel]

 

Originally posted by Wrench:
The thing about liberals: Their idea's always always seem to intefer with my idea's about life, liberty, and happiness. Whether it be a lifestyle that MUST be acknowledged, what I am allowed to own, or even what I might see in a public place. If I go get a job, it is in full knowledge that some of my competitors will be hired because of some quota.

So you see it isn't really about thinking liberal's are evil, it is about the unequality they want, and that is evil.

As an example:

It isn't enough for some of them to be gay/lesbian, I have to aknowledge it and let you teach my kids about it too.

It isn't enough for them to have the right to an abortion, they have to have clinics, welfare, and prosecuters to chase down dad's, so no matter what they chose they are covered by me.

It isnt enough to prosecute criminals,  I must surrender my guns for the "good of all".

It isn't enough to have free press, we must show every bloody school shooting and make celebrities out of the perps.

It isn't enough the we are free, we must tell the entire world how to live and govern.

It isn't enough to make discrimmination illegal, we must establish quota's and be damned skills and qualifications, only your race/sex matters.

With liberals it is never enough, people like myself are tired of the constant battle for freedom. We are tired of special rights. Get some idea's that don't force me to change my lifestyle, get some idea's that dont try and exclude me, and we can talk.

Wrench

As Eagler pointed out, well said!


------------------
LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[Ripsnort]

RUH-RAH WRENCH !!! <S>

[mietla]

C'mon Karnak, you can do better than that. Nobody hates you or dems/libs in general, and nobody claims they are evil. I simply reject your ideology and I think that you and the liberal movement are dead wrong. I do think that your ideology has slowly destroys this nation and I will always fight it, but I do believe that the libs have every right to be misguided.

I don't hate Clintons either. They are power hungry, dishonest and crooked moral relativists with an utter contempt for the law and especially the Constitution. They have a deluded themselves into thinking that they are “leaders” for the nation, and they think that this gives them a right to subvert the law. Typical leftie thinking "the end justifies the means".

I wish they'd disappear from the public scene, but as long as they are elected democratically I have tolerate them. And I’m afraid they are here to stay. We’ll never get rid of them.

I have no animosity against you, and you can drop by for a dinner any time  . As a matter of fact, we agree more than you think. A while ago you’ve posted a “manifesto” with thirty some things you believe in. You claim to be an ardent liberal, I would not call myself a conservative (maybe conservative/libertarian), but I’m an ardent anti-socialist. I’ve replied to your post addressing all your points, and guess what, we’ve agreed on 30 out of thirty two. Some liberal you are, huh?

mietla

[Karnak]

S! All.

I don't feel like I've been the victim of anything.  I am a bit concerned for the nation though.  This fierce kind of divisiveness can't be a good thing.

meitla,
That list cuts both ways.  You could be more liberal than you think.  One thing to note is that most of the things that are posted here by conservatives that purpose to be lists of what liberals stand for are WAY off.  Most of those lists take the standings of the fringe left and claim that it is what the mainstream left wants.  It would be like taking the stand of the KKK and saying that is what the mainstream right wants.  They'd both be inflammatory lies.

Part of what I was trying to say is what you said Mietla.  That we all have much more in common than we have differences.

Thanks for the dinner invitation.  Hopefully I can take you up on it at some point.

U.S.A.!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 11-09-2000).]

[mietla]

mietla, 1776, Gunthr, Eagler, Ripsnort, could you ever vote for a Democrat? Richard Gephart? Sen. Robert Kerry?
[/b]

I a heartbeat... as soon as their agenda contains:

- pro-life
- no gun control
- abolishing affirmative action
- abolishing an income tax
- fixing education problmes by privatizing schools
- strong and competent military

OK, it'll do for now....

[Eagler]

 

Originally posted by mietla:
I a heartbeat... as soon as their agenda contains:

- pro-life
- no gun control
- abolishing affirmative action
- abolishing an income tax
- fixing education problems by privatizing schools
- strong and competent military

OK, it'll do for now....

Sounds good to me, it'll never happen though. That's why they are the "Left" and we are the "RIGHT"!

Remember lefty loosey, Righty Tighty!!

Eagler