F6F-5... Much improved since last tested

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by g00b
Tried out the F6 again because of this thread.

Landed 19 kills in 3 sorties. Not 1 vulch I swear!

Great plane as long as you got someone to cover your egress.

g00b

lol, g00b.  I won't even say it!  What kind of tree did Washington chop down?

[g00b]

Originally posted by SkyRock
lol, g00b.  I won't even say it!  What kind of tree did Washington chop down?

Got the films, want em?

[Bruv119]

i did 47-0  in 4 runs   F6f5   the other day   I bet greebo went to pimp my ride  and they got back to him   ......



Bruv
~S~

[Widewing]

Well, I did some additional testing with the F6F-5. I tested max speed at critical altitude and saw 386 mph at 20k. This is about 20 mph slower than the TAIC and Factory speed data for the type.

Acceleration isn't spectacular, but needing 25.12 seconds to accelerate from 150 mph to 250 mph at sea level puts it dead even with the P-51D.

Climb was good, getting to 10k from sea level in a virtual dead heat with the Yak-9U at 2 minutes, 14 seconds. That's just 7 seconds behind the La-7 and 8 seconds behind the Tempest.  

Where the Hellcat really shows muscle is in a zoom climb. With another pilot, we compared the F6F-5 against the P-38J in zoom climb beginning at 300 mph TAS in WEP. The P-38 was eased into a steep climb with the Hellcat following close behind. When the P-38 stalled, the F6F motored right on by, climbing an additional 300 to 400 feet before it also fell off. We repeated this three times with the same result. This ability to retain E makes the F6F a very dangerous fighter. Clearly, it benefits a great deal from the revised drag model. Any attempt by a P-38 pilot to turn with the F6F is futile. Once airspeed drops below corner velocity, the Hellcat will turn inside the Lightning with ease. Even with full flaps deployed by the P-38J, the F6F's turn radius is more than 100 feet smaller and its turn rate is greater as well.

Among the whole of the plane set, I'd rate the F6F as one of the very best dogfighters, easily in the top 10. Combined with its ruggedness, large ammo capacity and the ability to carry the same bomb and rocket load as the P-51D and F4Us, it has to rank among the best overall fighters. Now, if only HTC would bump its speed up to where it should be....

My regards,

Widewing

[SuperDud]

How would it fair with the KI84 at lower speeds?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by SuperDud
How would it fair with the KI84 at lower speeds?

Comparing test data we find that the F6F has a slightly tighter turn radius and indentical turn rate.

In a straight climb from sea level to 10k, the Ki-84 wins by 10 seconds. In a zoom climb, the F6F runs down a Co-E Ki-84, the result of its far greater mass.

Measuring acceleration, the Ki-84 gets from 150 mph to 250 mph slightly faster (two seconds).

Roll rate unassisted by rudder input goes to the Ki-84 at 107 degrees/sec Vs 72 degrees/sec for the Hellcat.

The F6F has much better rudder authority, meaning that at speeds below 150 mph, the F6F can be made to roll as quickly as the Ki-84. Below 100 mph the F6F rolls a bit faster.

Then we have the flaps factor. One major problem for the Ki-84 is that the F6F can begin deploying flaps at 250 mph, much faster than the Ki-84 can. This means that the Hellcat can out-turn the Ki-84 at all speeds below 250 mph.

Given approximately equal pilots, the 109F-4 will defeat the Ki-84 in a turn fight. I discovered this to be the case dueling with Timppa. Given approximately equal pilots, the F6F will defeat the 109F-4, demonstrated dueling with Creton and Iceman24 (kudos to Iceman for winning the recent KOTH event).

Therefore, I am comfortable in stating the the F6F will defeat the Ki-84 when both are flown by pilots of roughly equal skills. Invariably, there will be a skill differential in the MA. So, results will depend to some degree upon who is flying what.

One other interesting fact. It is virtually impossible to get the F6F into compressibility trouble. It will simply not "lock up". Indeed, at 575 mph (with combat trim on) it will pull out of a dive "hands off" without needing trim changes.

My regards,

Widewing

[Oleg]

Originally posted by Widewing
One other interesting fact. It is virtually impossible to get the F6F into compressibility trouble. It will simply not "lock up". Indeed, at 575 mph (with combat trim on) it will pull out of a dive "hands off" without needing trim changes.

I didnt check exact speed, but above ~500mph almost impossible to handle Hellcat w/o trims. And you need trims to achieve this speed actually.
Btw, "combat trim on" == "using trims"

Hellcat very good fighter w/o doubt. It can win turnfight against spit5 or seafire with bit of luck Nevertheless, i still prefer F4U

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Oleg
I didnt check exact speed, but above ~500mph almost impossible to handle Hellcat w/o trims. And you need trims to achieve this speed actually.
Btw, "combat trim on" == "using trims"

Hellcat very good fighter w/o doubt. It can win turnfight against spit5 or seafire with bit of luck Nevertheless, i still prefer F4U

I'm afraid that I completely disagree. There are few, if any aircraft that handle as well as the F6F at very high speeds.

Below is a link to a short film that demontrates this. Beginning at 22,500 feet, I dive an F6F up to 595 mph, While still well above 580 mph, It rolls easily and I line up, attack and destroy a B-24 drone at very high speed.

I left it in combat trim and used absolutely no trim adjustments.

F6F-5 Dive Test

My regards,

Widewing

[Oleg]

Originally posted by Widewing
I'm afraid that I completely disagree. There are few, if any aircraft that handle as well as the F6F at very high speeds.

Below is a link to a short film that demontrates this. Beginning at 22,500 feet, I dive an F6F up to 595 mph, While still well above 580 mph, It rolls easily and I line up, attack and destroy a B-24 drone at very high speed.

It left it in combat trim and used absolutely no trim adjustments.

F6F-5 Dive Test

My regards,

Widewing

"Combat trims" move trims for you. Turn off combat trims and try again. If you will able to repeat this with combat trims off and w/o manual trims, i will admit i wrong.
Personally, i cannt handle F6F5 at such speed w/o trims at any form.

[lazs2]

The ava is ki84 and lala 5's and sevens.  I do not find the Ki84 to be much of a turner... even the lala 5 outturns it pretty well.  I noticed I was not at a disadvantage in the turn with them even when using the la7

I am assuming that all the guys I fought were as good or better than me (I am not that good) and that given that I have very little time in the La series and mostly fly the FM2.... I shoulda been handily out turned by the Ki if it's turn rate and circle were as good or better.    The Ki does climb very quickly tho.  

lazs

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Widewing
I'm afraid that I completely disagree. There are few, if any aircraft that handle as well as the F6F at very high speeds.

Below is a link to a short film that demontrates this. Beginning at 22,500 feet, I dive an F6F up to 595 mph, While still well above 580 mph, It rolls easily and I line up, attack and destroy a B-24 drone at very high speed.

It left it in combat trim and used absolutely no trim adjustments.

F6F-5 Dive Test

Two fighters known for having superior control at very high speeds in a dive are the Spitfires and F4Us.

I performed the exact same dive test flying the Spitfire Mk.VIII and F4U-1D. As with the F6F, dives began at 22.5k by rolling inverted. Combat trim was enabled.

You shall see that the Spitfire locked up and gradually eased out of the dive into a climbing right turn. It was impossible to control until speed had bled down.

On the other hand, the F4U also locked up. It did "free-up" eventually, but was uncontrollable at speeds where the F6F maneuvers easily. Film links below.


Spitfire Mk.VIII Dive Test

F4U-1D Dive Test

My regards,

Widewing

[Oleg]

Once again: if you enable combat trims then you use trims. Then it say nothing about high-speed handle without trims.

You can say one plane has better combat trims than another or it has better control with trims or so on, but you cannt say it has better control w/o trims.

Btw, you cannt make same w/o trims at all, right?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Oleg
Once again: if you enable combat trims then you use trims. Then it say nothing about high-speed handle without trims.

You can say one plane has better combat trims than another or it has better control with trims or so on, but you cannt say it has better control w/o trims.

Btw, you cannt make same w/o trims at all, right?

There is no such thing as w/o trim. Trim tabs are ALWAYS set to some position. You can pre-set trim to assist in a dive or you can pre-set trim for max speed. Combat trim tends to do the latter by eliminating or reducing stick forces. Virtually every aircraft requires trim changes over its speed range.

In the game, most aircraft fly as well in combat trim as they could being manually trimmed. Some don't, such as the P-38 and Ki-84. Leaving combat trim on for the F4Us and F6F does no harm and there is nothing to be gained by trimming manually.

It should also be mentioned that the F6F requires very little trim adjustment between 200 and 590 mph. You can see this in the film. Combat trim barely changes trim throughout the dive.

My point was and is that no other fighter has better control at high speeds with or without manual trim. In other words, the pilot has enough mechanical advantage remaining at very high speeds to maneuver the F6F, while most if not all other aircraft cannot.

How many fighters can dive nearly 20,000 feet at full throttle while still being light enough on the controls to maneuver and bring guns to bear at nearly 600 mph? Darn few. Indeed, the F6F is certainly one of the best at a high-speed bounce.

If any fighter in the plane set is nearly auger-proof, the F6F is it.

My regards,

Widewing

[Vudak]

Originally posted by Widewing

Leaving combat trim on for the F4Us and F6F does no harm and there is nothing to be gained by trimming manually.

I'm not sure I'd agree regarding the F4U...  TC suggested fiddling with my elevator trim a bit (slap it at the bottom of the "L"), and I have to admit, I think it makes the plane much more stable slow, especially when pushing the nose up.

When I forget to trim out, I notice it during the fight.

Then again, it might just be that I got used to trimming manually, and had I not, I could have gotten similar performance by simply "learning it" the other way around.  I have my doubts, however.

[Oleg]

Originally posted by Widewing
There is no such thing as w/o trim. Trim tabs are ALWAYS set to some position.  

In neutral, for example?

High-speed handling is all about compression. If you can perform high speed maneuvers with "main" control surfaces w/o trim adjusting then your plane has good handling at high speed, if you need to adjust your trim - your plane has bad handling at high speed. Easy enough, huh?
In RL all high-speed handling test performed w/o trim adjusting, i believe. So you cannt make your tests with combat trims on and compare it with RL tests.

But if your point about combat trim realizations only, then ok, i can agree with you. It dont means F6F5's trims are wrong, nevertheless. M.b. they actually was more effective than usual due some reasons, i dont know.