8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested

[Maverick]

Angus,

You don't need buckshot or slugs to be lethal. I've already seen the results previously.

Now to return the the original thread. Your input has been rather off topic from what the thread was concerned with.

[Angus]

Not really.
And this:
"You don't need buckshot or slugs to be lethal. I've already seen the results previously"

Depends on the range which is what I said. Sawed-off scatter very badly you know. Or are you not a shooter?

Back to topic, IMHO for defence of property, as say- a store, a conceilable weapon is not that necessary, - while in the hands of a thug it has formidable assets.

[Maverick]

Angus,

I am a hunter but that has nothing to do with what I posted and you quoted. I saw the results on a person, who was rather dead. Like I said you don't need buckshot for a shotgun to be lethal in excess of 20 yards even with open choke. A plain bore, no choke opens the pattern approximately 1 inch per yard of travel. 20 yards = 20" spread. Thirty yards = 30" spread. Tested on our range to confirm the results using an open bored 12 guage.

I would not want to be downrange at 30 yards from a shotgun, not even pepershot.

Now this has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the thread since there was no shotgun used in the case of the man with the pistol stopping a slasher.

[Angus]

Shot ptarmigans at 50 yds without making a hole in them.
That was no. 9.
BB would have gone right through I guess, but with no barrel you wouldn't hit it at that range.
It's a handgun thread yes. It wasn't me though who pointed out that the sawed off would be an equal or bigger threat.

[Jackal1]

Not sure how things work in Iceland , but in these parts when Joe Crackhead and E. Money goes into rob the local 7-11, bank, Pizza Hut or whatever there is usualy a vehicle involved.
Concealing their weapons, no matter what it is, is not considered as a rule. It is usualy just the opposite. If they could get a wheeled cannon through the door, that would be the choice.
Shotguns , of all sizes , shapes and forms are used regularly.
Shotguns are not a probelm for the career criminal.
What is the problem of the career criminal is the chance that upon entering an establishment to rob, there could possibly be one, two or more citizens in the area, with a concealed carry permit , who are armed, trained and efficient with their weapon of choice .
Shock factor is what they depend on more than anything else.

[lazs2]

See Rule #4, #5

[Angus]

"Not sure how things work in Iceland , but in these parts when Joe Crackhead and E. Money goes into rob the local 7-11, bank, Pizza Hut or whatever there is usualy a vehicle involved.
Concealing their weapons, no matter what it is, is not considered as a rule. It is usualy just the opposite. If they could get a wheeled cannon through the door, that would be the choice."

Hehe, much easier with a handgun. More and faster rounds too.
BTW, what did that nuthead use in Seattle (yesterday?). And the guys in Phoenix?
And the Columbine fellows?

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Angus


Hehe, much easier with a handgun.  

Nope. To the contrary. It`s the shock factor. Intimidation. Most of them are cowards anyway.

More and faster rounds too.

Evidently you are not very informed on modern shotguns and accessories.
(Dang.......that sounded like Hank Hill)

BTW, what did that nuthead use in Seattle (yesterday?). And the guys in Phoenix?

Doesn`t make much difference what they used, even a cannon. Point being...one or more persons in the area with a concealed carry permit could have stopped them cold in their tracks.

[Jackal1]

Colubine:

"Eric Harris


    * 12 gauge Savage-Springfield 67H pump-action shotgun Serial No.: ..A232432
    * Hi-Point 995 Carbine 9mm semi-automatic rifle with 10 round magazines
    * The shotgun was the primary weapon used by Harris and was fired a total of 25 times
    * Harris committed suicide with the shotgun


Dylan Klebold


    * 9mm Intratec Tec-9 Semi-automatic handgun manufactured by Navegar, Inc. with 32 round magazines
    * 12 gauge Stevens 311D double barreled shotgun Serial No.: ..A077513
    * The Tec-9 handgun was the weapon primarily used by Klebold and was fired a total of 55 times.
    * Klebold committed suicide with the Tec-9



Both

    * Both carried numerous knives
    * Both carried 9mm magazines in their pockets
    * Both had pouches on their belts full of 12-gauge rounds
"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They also had IEDs.

[Maverick]

Angus,

I can't help you shooting at ptarmigan at 50 yards and not hitting them with #9. Wing shooting is tough. Proper wing shooting is tougher.

[Toad]

9 shot is too light for almost anything at 50 yards. It's .08 inch diameter shot, ~585 pellets to the ounce. You simply chose the wrong shot for the intended target/range.

5 shot will easily kill a 2 pound pheasant at 50 yards though.  It's .13 inch diameter, ~170 pellets to the ounce.

#9 shot launched at 1200 fps has only about 7/10th of a ft. lb. of energy left at 40 yards; #7-1/2 has 1.3 ft. lbs., #6 2.2 ft. lbs., and #5 3.1 ft. lbs. Phrased differently, #5 shot has far more energy at 60 yards (2.2 ft. lbs.) than # 8 shot has at 20 yards (1.7 ft. lbs.).

With perhaps the exception of quail, #8 or #9 shot is best left to the skeet field. #7-1/2 is reasonable for dove and other extremely fragile birds, with #6 good for medium birds at medium ranges. #6 shot performs poorly on pheasants except at short range. (You can place about as much energy per #5 shot pellet into a pheasant at 40 yards as you can with #6 shot at 20 yards.) Insufficient penetration means lost or crippled birds.

Shot size makes a difference; you need to size the shot to the game. Your ptarmigan is probably about 1 -1.5 pounds live weight? That would probably need about the same shot as pheasant, either 6's or 5's for responsible hunting.

[lazs2]

just saying... if criminals can still get, make or modify guns easily (ten minutes is easily to me)....

Then it is not gun bans that make a country less homicidal.

lazs