Author Topic: Damage modeling  (Read 1609 times)

Offline 1epic1

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Damage modeling
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2006, 10:36:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
If you make the DM more realistic then the game would be harder to succeed in.  True it would be harder to fail in as well, but AH has always been about playability, about being a fun and mostly believable game.  

I stopped playing IL2 online because it was too much work for too little gain (plus the .50s were pathetically undermoded "IMO").  In AH I can come into the arena and within a matter of minutes have 10 kills under my belt.  I like that :cool:



OK what part of simulation DONT U GET!?

This is a combat sim....not some arcade game....combat sims are 99% based on how well the planes are modeled then .5% on game play and another .5% on somthing i dont care about...in other words a new DM will make it easier to shoot people down....so now if u shoot someone up with tons of 50 cals and u get shot down by him, you know that he is hurt and ur not that pissed...unlike now where he has wings full of holes but if nothing is missing HES UNHARMED!

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2006, 06:19:48 AM »
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Originally posted by 1epic1
stop with the chuck norris...its has nothing to do with this post...i hate people spam...specificly this site...more specificly my damn post


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Offline Knite

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« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2006, 09:05:40 AM »
I personally support this idea. I also think it would change in some ways how people fly (not totally, but maybe a little).

Think about it.

La7 dives down on a P-51 for the HO. Normally La7 would take out the 51, and then dive away with maybe a fuel leak.

New damage model.
La7 dives on a P-51 for the HO. P-51 is destroyed. La7 now has 40% less roll from the right alieron, the right wing only provides 65% of it's previous lift, has a fuel leak, and the engine can only output 87% of it's total power.

Sure, the La7 can continue on in the 2nd example, but he's also much more of a sitting duck. It might force people to either improve thier flying, learn to fly home sooner, or both. It also increases the importance of being a wingman and an assister.


Another good example would be the Ace pilot who tries to bounce 2 n00bs.
The Aces Pilot might still get his kills, but if the 2 n00bs work together, there's a much higher chance that Ace needs to get his butt home, or might actually damage the Ace enough to force him to think twice about jumping 2 n00bs.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 09:13:42 AM by Knite »
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Offline Wilbus

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Re: I concur...
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2006, 09:28:29 AM »
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2006, 09:31:55 AM »
Fill in the contexts, shall we?
 
 
Quote
If you make the DM more realistic then the game would be harder to succeed in (for me). True it would be harder to fail in as well, but AH has always been about playability (for me), about being a fun and mostly believable game, (which definition of 'believable', happens to be a game which lets me get 10 kills in a matter of minutes).

I stopped playing IL2 online because it was too much work for too little gain (or in other words, I just couldn't adapt to it)... (plus the .50s were pathetically undermoded "IMO" (I mean, I couldn't shoot down something with .50s - if the .50s were modelled right, the fact that I couldn't fully adapt to the game shouldn't matter - if I shoot, the wings should come off! Teh 50s ArE the R0XX0rS!). In AH I can come into the arena and within a matter of minutes have 10 kills under my belt. I like that (and that's what really matters to me. Who cares if the game changes to something that more closely resembles real life?)



 I was also one of the smug folk who thought AH was simply the best in everything. I'd sit down and play IL-2, and see that I'm getting my butt kicked in situations which in AH would've been different, and I'd sit down and think to myself "total bullshi* - obviously the game's wrong."

 That went on for the first few months - until I got used to the restrictive view system. Played both AH and IL2/FB (and all the diddly add-ons) extensively, and reached the conclusion the 1C:Maddox folk almost perfected the DM system.

 Frankly, anyone who'd suggest the AH DM is even remotely superior over IL-2/FB's is either seriously biased or insane. And bringing in the 'gameplay excuse' is a just a classic cop-out. The general difficulty and success rates of aerial gunnery in IL-2/FB matches real life instances much more closely than AH, and the effects of gunnery (DM) are much more profound and believable.

 There used to be the same bullshi* 'concerns' about the refined gunnery when AH2 beta came out - how people obviously will not be able to cope with a more realistic gunnery, and that kind of 'too much realism' would ruin the game and make customers go away.

 As it turns out, those claims proved to be exactly what it is - a crock of bullshi*. The average gunnery distances in AH1 was way over 500 yards, easily upto 600 and occasionally 800 to 1000. The refined hit detection reduced the gunnery range down to 300~400 yards (which btw, is still way too far) - people had trouble for the first month or so, and they easily adapted to it ever since.

 It's not as if refining the DM realistically is the same thing as asking "8-hour-flights-to-target" sort of realism. The DM is directly related to combat and frankly higher level of detail in such components of the game only enhances the fun, not deterrs it.


 Any flightsim that depicts hydraulic fluids catching fire, and then the flames dying out after the fluids are all spent, is superb in my book. Or, a sim that depicts damaged throttle gates, the pilot rudely realizing that his throttle system has been rendered unresponsive by enemy fire.

 Can AH offer that kind of heart-pounding immersion with its DM?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 09:43:47 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Mugzeee

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« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2006, 11:27:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Fill in the contexts, shall we?
 
 



 I was also one of the smug folk who thought AH was simply the best in everything. I'd sit down and play IL-2, and see that I'm getting my butt kicked in situations which in AH would've been different, and I'd sit down and think to myself "total bullshi* - obviously the game's wrong."

 That went on for the first few months - until I got used to the restrictive view system. Played both AH and IL2/FB (and all the diddly add-ons) extensively, and reached the conclusion the 1C:Maddox folk almost perfected the DM system.

 Frankly, anyone who'd suggest the AH DM is even remotely superior over IL-2/FB's is either seriously biased or insane. And bringing in the 'gameplay excuse' is a just a classic cop-out. The general difficulty and success rates of aerial gunnery in IL-2/FB matches real life instances much more closely than AH, and the effects of gunnery (DM) are much more profound and believable.

 There used to be the same bullshi* 'concerns' about the refined gunnery when AH2 beta came out - how people obviously will not be able to cope with a more realistic gunnery, and that kind of 'too much realism' would ruin the game and make customers go away.

 As it turns out, those claims proved to be exactly what it is - a crock of bullshi*. The average gunnery distances in AH1 was way over 500 yards, easily upto 600 and occasionally 800 to 1000. The refined hit detection reduced the gunnery range down to 300~400 yards (which btw, is still way too far) - people had trouble for the first month or so, and they easily adapted to it ever since.

 It's not as if refining the DM realistically is the same thing as asking "8-hour-flights-to-target" sort of realism. The DM is directly related to combat and frankly higher level of detail in such components of the game only enhances the fun, not deterrs it.


 Any flightsim that depicts hydraulic fluids catching fire, and then the flames dying out after the fluids are all spent, is superb in my book. Or, a sim that depicts damaged throttle gates, the pilot rudely realizing that his throttle system has been rendered unresponsive by enemy fire.

 Can AH offer that kind of heart-pounding immersion with its DM?

Are you making a lot of bullsh** assumptions here? Adapted? Meaning what? They all like it now?  Or they all have grown to accept the fact that it wont change and decided to get used to it?
The latter doesn't necessarily mean that all are satisfied. Neither does it mean any further refinement of the "DM"/"Gunnery" wouldn't be the proverbial straw that brakes the camels back either.
After all...most IL2 players i have known over the past 3 years are now playing AH exclusively. Bet many Ah2 players can say the same.
If you think it isn't possible for HTC to Upgrade its self outa business...think again. After the higher percentile of new Ah2 subscribers are of the younger (Duke Nukem) generation. If they cant shoot at something and see watermelon blow up...they wont hang around for long.
Final note.
Wonder what the Hit% and Kill%/totals are Post new Dm compared to Pre DM?
I personally know many, at least 10 or better players who have spent much less time in AH2 since the new DM/gunnery change. Its the same ole comment (I cant hit watermelon anymore) and the dissappear, not to be seen  online again for several months. Many of them in fact, frequent the Message Boards here at HTC.

Offline ghi

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« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2006, 12:16:40 PM »
imop , the damage setting on the runway and the damage in flight are total in  the Vulchers advantage,

  If i'm in flight most of the fighters/bombers need 5-10 or more 20mm hits to blow up,(unless pilot killed) but if i'm on the runway with gear down  1, ONLY 1 x 20mm shell make the plane blow up, in pices , Why is this diference? what's the logic explanation?
It should be opossite, cuz in flight are dynamic forces stressing the structure that would help a damage made by a shell

Offline eilif

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« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2006, 12:24:11 PM »
Posted by 1epic1

Quote
OK what part of simulation DONT U GET!?
This is a combat sim....not some arcade game....combat sims are 99% based on how well the planes are modeled then .5% on game play and another .5% on somthing i dont care about..


I used to be a real pain in HTC's side demanding all sorts of "realism" until i just realized that ah is indeed a game that has high fidelity airplanes (from a gamers perspective). This is not a sim, it does simulate some aspects of WWII aircombat but in the end its about having fun. I play somewhere else when im in the sim mood, but when you just want to break out a beer and shoot something ah is great.  

The DM in ah is pretty dang insta kill compared to anyting i have flown before, heck in targetware I have had Fiat g50s fill my p40N with their entire 303 clip and I can manage to slowly and awkwardly make it home for a nice crash landing, of course over there they dont have it so kills are announced to everyone so the mentality is completely different. Just wounding a plane and sending it home to protect your bomber or base is gratiflying.  In ah its fun to go around and bag some scalps, having a DM that is simplified makes it so you can kill 10 planes and rtb to get a bunch of WTGs, which i think is integeral to the gameplay.  Maybe for Combat tour, since it seems less oriented around how many kills you get and more about applying force when needed to make a mission move the DM will be more realistic since it wont make or break the gameplay, a wounded bomber that is going to have to ditch before it makes it to your base is a succesefull victory, maybe some sort of different public reward system will have to be developed to message Egos.:p
« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 12:30:59 PM by eilif »

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2006, 12:59:32 PM »
Quote
I personally know many, at least 10 or better players who have spent much less time in AH2 since the new DM/gunnery change. Its the same ole comment (I cant hit watermelon anymore) and the dissappear, not to be seen online again for several months. Many of them in fact, frequent the Message Boards here at HTC.


I sure hope they don't give up as easily in real life as they do here cause if they do they are in serious dodo.

People who get pissed off and leave cause 1000 yard kills are made more difficult might wanna go and play some older kind of game instead. Or maybe Doom.

But of course that is just my opinion, sure there are people who think the exact opposit.
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Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2006, 01:07:07 PM »
In AH1 I shot down an La7 in a P-47D-40.  The La7 was 1.7k out and I was co-alt on his 7'o clock.   I had the convergence maxed, and used a wee-bit of Kentucky windage.   Luck?  Perhaps.   Heck, I routinely make 1.5k-2.0k Ostie shots, some will <> me, most don't (they whine or yell at their PC).  

But to quit over the Damage model is asinine.
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Offline bozon

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« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2006, 01:37:47 PM »
The DM has always been the weakest area in AH. I understand that doing a more detailed DM is a major task for a small company like HTC. I would think that over the years, the time for doing this would be found, but it wasn't. While we are at it, re-doing the coastlines for the v2.0 graphic engine is also way over due.

HTC has its priorities and they might be different from what I or some other guy want. I'd rather have a better DM than some more hangar queens modeled. HTC decided to play everything on the CT vision and so again such things as the DM which are not immediately essential are pushed aside.

So AH is less then perfect, but it is still the best out there.
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Offline pluck

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« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2006, 02:27:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 1epic1
OK what part of simulation DONT U GET!?

This is a combat sim....not some arcade game....combat sims are 99% based on how well the planes are modeled then .5% on game play and another .5% on somthing i dont care about...in other words a new DM will make it easier to shoot people down....so now if u shoot someone up with tons of 50 cals and u get shot down by him, you know that he is hurt and ur not that pissed...unlike now where he has wings full of holes but if nothing is missing HES UNHARMED!


again, if you were to ask me, this game is much more arcade than a sim. we have reduced flight times, hangars that reconstruct, ships that rebuild at port within minutes.  you can spawn as many plane/tanks/pt boats as you like.  the only real strat involved are hangars troops and ord, all of which can be easily killed and suicided ad nauseam.  ack that seems to shoot through objects and does not prioritize targets.  not saying it's not a good game, just not a simulation.

guess i am missing a point somewhere....if you put "tons" of ammo into someone, they go unscathed in AH?  i wouldn't mind an altered DM, as someone said people will adapt. i just hate to think people are calling for planes to be disabled and killed more easily for the sake of having easier kills.  it might be fun to have things like stuck throttles and various parts of planes on fire, damaged gauges etc....but to remodel for easier kills in a game that already rewards vulching and flying in hoardes seems a bit lame imho.
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Offline Brooke

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« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2006, 02:51:28 PM »
Pluck, if you'd like more realism than the main arena, I highly recommend scenarios -- I like them very much.  For me, the main arena is a fun place to keep up flying skills in between scenarios, but scenarios are what I fly for.

Offline mojo7

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« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2006, 03:42:22 PM »
AH is still the most realistic flight-sim experience yet. All planes are rendered with a high degree of detail and accuracy.The flight dynamics seem to be a bit more rigorous than most can handle.The visuals in AH aren't nearly as impressive as in some of the others (Il-2), but the ease of play and varied game options make this one a keeper.


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Offline save

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« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2006, 04:18:16 PM »
AH damage modelling is the singlemost worst of its game features.

Feels like popping popcorn at d7 - IRL you dont hit any fighter target at that distance - most targets fell from d2 or less IRL.

I like AH flight modell and all updates compared with its main competitor WarBirds ( which HT also did many years ago ).

I do not say gunnery / damage model is perfect in WB - just more realistic.

Do we want quakebirds or a relistic sim ?
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