Author Topic: Whos head is "buried in the sand"?  (Read 390 times)

Offline Animal

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Whos head is "buried in the sand"?
« on: September 08, 2001, 03:08:00 AM »
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/Forum35/HTML/002036.html


First, let me say that I love IL2. Great game and I cant wait to have the full version.

But whats going on in the SimHQ IL2 forums is just plain, stupid worshiping.


TANKS shooting down PLANES is not a freak happening in IL2. Its quite COMMON, Ive been shot down a few times.
I'm sure it was VERY unlikely in WW2, It was possible, but VERY, VERY rare. Only lucky shots.

Yet here is Oleg basing this whole Tank-Vs-Aircraft modelling based on a few Tank Commanders (Who were "Heroes of the Soviet Union", so they used a lot of propaganda) who said they shot planes down in their tanks.

And here is the whole SEIG OLEG cult taking his every statement for granted, and anyone who disagrees, is a fool and his head is "buried on the sand".

'Here in AH, most of us really like IL2. But we can see the flaws (as well as the many pros). So, whos head is buried in the sand?

Geez..

Offline SOB

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Whos head is "buried in the sand"?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2001, 04:54:00 AM »
Go away Animal, you are a bad pilot and a crappy CO.


SOB
Three Times One Minus One.  Dayum!

Offline Toad

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Whos head is "buried in the sand"?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2001, 07:38:00 AM »
Hey, Animal...

I actually do have a translated copy of "Stories of the Sherman Tank" by Hero of the Soviet Union Dmitriy Loza in which he tells of a buddy of his elevating the front end of a Sherman on a berm and nailing a German bomber with the main gun.

But even he admits it was a one in a million shot.  :)

As for cults.... yep, every time a new game in any genre comes out cults spring up complete with High Priests and Acolytes.

I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product here too. Might be a worthwhile addition to the gameshelf. Haven't put a boxed game on the drive since WW2 Fighters and EAW. Time for something fresher.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Animal

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Whos head is "buried in the sand"?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2001, 10:14:00 AM »
Yeah I know it happened, but it was a freak incident.
Ive done it once in AH, against a Ju88 flying SLOW and STRAIGHT at me.

In IL2, they are all shooting at you and if they dont hit you, they near miss   :eek:


But the point is, if Oleg says it is so (effective anti-aircraft tanks; 109 outrolls 190) then they will believe it is so faithfully no matther how much proof you put in their faces.
Religion.

Offline Hristo

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Whos head is "buried in the sand"?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2001, 10:21:00 AM »
Geez, Animal, you are such a whiner  ;).

The game isn't out and you whine already ? And about guns ?!  ;)

Offline mrfish

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Whos head is "buried in the sand"?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2001, 12:37:00 PM »
that's funny - i was think: between crs' disaster, all the 27 pages of discussion about roll rates at il-2, not to mention the endless nit picking here and at wb etc....who would ever think about starting another wwii flight sim from the ground up!!!

Offline Zigrat

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Whos head is "buried in the sand"?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2001, 01:02:00 AM »
uhm i posted this same topic like 2 weeks ago

sounds like you worship me and just regurgitate my ideas?

hmmm

btw how the helll did you become co. thats rediculous lol  :)

Offline funkedup

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Whos head is "buried in the sand"?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2001, 01:57:00 AM »
Animal has freakishly small misshapen genitals.

Offline Buzzbait

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Whos head is "buried in the sand"?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2001, 02:49:00 AM »
S!

For once I am going to agree with Animal.

Oleg Maddox is a very talented designer, but he has a very strong nationalistic streak which is colouring his design of this sim.

Basically the Soviet Union won the land part of WWII.  They would have made it to Berlin whether or not the Allies landed at D-Day.

But they did it at a cost of 27 million dead, 10 million of which were soldiers.  So obviously this is a big emotional issue for Russians, and also a big source of pride.

The Soviets had the largest part in the victory in Europe, but they also had a lot of very stupid commanders, who made poor decisions and killed a lot of their men by trying to please Stalin.

In the airwar, the Soviets claimed something like 60,000 German aircraft shot down.  That is around 3 times the TOTAL number of aircraft lost by the Germans on ALL fronts.

The Germans basically kicked Soviet butt in the air.  And they did it against much larger numbers.  The main reason was initially far inferior Soviet aircraft, and then later, very poor training of the Soviet pilots who replaced the ones killed early on.

From 1944 onwards the Germans had barely 400 fighters facing the Soviets, but they still managed to score more victories.

Sure there were a few good Soviet Aces, usually guys who were lucky enough to have the training to survive the early days, and then fly well in the later stages.

I think Oleg has swallowed all the Soviet propaganda and has to believe what was said:  Ie.  The Soviets were facing the bulk of the German airforce, and the best aircraft.  Since hardly any 190's, (except in the ground attack role) were on the East Front, the best line is to represent the 109 as the superior aircraft, capable of rolling much faster, with excellent high speed control and no compressibility.

And the Soviet aircraft all seem to be represented with absolutely none of their flaws, ie. manufacturing problems, quality control etc.

He's also dishing out these myths re. tank main guns etc.

Plus the formula he is using to calculate the FM is purely mechanical, and doesn't seem to have taken into consideration the realities of the Humans who actually had to use the controls under conditions like compressibility etc.

It's a shame, since the actual mechanics of the Sim are excellent, and the graphics etc. are first class.  Even the 'feel' of the aircraft is very good.  Too bad the FM is definitely wonky.

Oleg needs to be called on his claims.

He should produce the documents which back up his performance claims.  Especially the German ones.  And the Soviet ones should be examined very closely for design bureau overclaiming.

There are signs that Oleg is backtracking a bit on some of the outlandish aspects of the FM, but I think we will have to wait for the final release to find what his final decision was.

Offline Boroda

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Whos head is "buried in the sand"?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2001, 11:50:00 AM »
AFAIK Miko2d served in Soviet Army as a tank commander. Maybe he'll tell if it's possible to fight air targets with main gun?

Offline miko2d

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Whos head is "buried in the sand"?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2001, 11:59:00 AM »
Here is an opinion of a tank gunner on posibility of shooting down an aircraft.

 If a tank is rolling with it's cannon loaded with an alert gunner watching intently for targets in his narrow field of vision and an aircraft pops up low flies slowly towards a tank, there is not much to putting a shell into it, especially a high-speed anti-armor sabot.

 Of course those conditions are only true in real battle. In thatc case there is usually a lot of dist and smoke and the crew is concentrating on the ground - for AT and infantry with AT weapons, not air and can easily miss an approaching aircraft.
 What's more important, no aircraft would attack an advancing tanks from the front - not only because of risk of being shot, but because tanks front is invulnerable to prerry much everything an aircraft can carry.

 Outside of combat, the cannon is usually unloaded and the turret is latched. It takes a while to make a tank battle ready even if the aircraft is in the direction the tank could shoot.

 The reasons for much likelier shooting down of AC by tanks in sims is that they acquire targets unrealistically reliably and fast and ready to shoot right away.

 miko