Author Topic: "Fight or Run" A.C.  (Read 1657 times)

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2006, 08:30:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
It's a matter of record that PNAC principals created the Iraq war.  By trying to make it look like a tin-hat thing, you're either showing your ignorance or dispensing disinformation.


You'll have to explain "created".

Is this the "Bush lied" scenario?

Are there some PNAC members in the Bush admin? Apparently so.

Do they control the entire government? No, they do not. They do not control the SC, they do not control the Congress. I don't even think they control the executive branch any more than the Trilateralists did when they were the Boogeymen or the CFR members did when they were the Boogeymen or the Bilderbergers either.

It's cool to have a secret cabal to blame and I'm sure it'll make a great novel or movie but the evidence of this unstoppable, omnipotent organization is just not there.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18719
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2006, 08:32:24 PM »
democrats supported the war because it was the popular thing to do at the time ... they are our hindsight experts

but now they want the US back in Lebanon or maybe they just want the jewish vote..how does anyone take anything they say seriously now a days
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline lukster

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2581
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2006, 10:00:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
It's a matter of record that PNAC principals created the Iraq war.  By trying to make it look like a tin-hat thing, you're either showing your ignorance or dispensing disinformation.


Some trick getting Saddam to invade Kuwait back in 1990. I'm kinda surprised he didn't rat on them.

Offline Thrawn

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6972
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2006, 10:01:30 PM »
PNAC isn't a conspiracy.  What type of conspiracists have a freaking website.  PNAC is a fact, and it's all there for anyone who wants to read.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2006, 10:33:41 PM »
Quote
But of COURSE they did. The could choose to support it or not support it. They CHOSE to support it. You attribute this to primarily political considerations. You refuse to accept that Democrats may well have felt Iraq was a threat that needed addressing.

And of course you are also implying that the Democrats in toto are powerless in the face of the might PNAC. Ain't buying that one either.


Yes I do. I think the Democrats picked an avenue that they hoped would end up a "Win Win" with little political risk for the alternatives. You seem to posit that these people had their arms twisted somehow, or were even all that engaged in the process. Most probably had no ****ing idea what to do post 9/11. They are politicians -- look at their backgrounds. They are not statesmen anymore, or deep thinkers or well read by and large or even informed on detailed foreign policy considerations except for some on select committees. For goodness sake, some of MY writings have been cited in Congressional research materials on gasoline prices :) Their main skill is in having charisma, drive and looking good on TV. I mean hell, when a guy like Randy Cunningham shakes down lobbyists and that Jackson guy has the $100K of cold cash in the fridge, and you get people voting for the prescription drug plan that is openly considered a cash give away to the drug industry, and the similar highway bill... yeah, where's that ****ing Mr. Smith? I want my Jimmy Stewart! They have good staffs of smart folk, but they have a lot of ground to cover and have a core focus on the political considerations (in Washington and at home) as well.

They looked to the President for guidance. He presented justification, a threat and a plan. He created an atmosphere where dissent was politically risky. They took the path of least resistance and hoped for the best. Happens all the time. Sadly, this wasn't just some mega pork bill.

And PNAC is not a conspiracy. It's not a shadow organization. It doesn't pull any "strings" behind the scenes any more than Robert McNamara "manipulated" his positions secretly on the conduct of the war in Vietnam. PNAC is a think tank group with a well defined foreign policy plan. They were picked by the President to fill VIRTUALLY ALL of his senior foreign policy positions, not just some. Do political advisors have philosophies on policy? Do presidents? Do they base their actions on their beliefs?

As for WMD and the wall of quotes... BTW, I could similarly fill a page with links about Korea or Iran from the same time frame since Iraq was hardly the only potential WMD threat in the world... For all those statements of concern dating back to 1998, no one pushed to invade Iraq. Perhaps they understood, as PNAC itself clearly noted in its materials pre 9/11, that if Saddam had the bomb he wouldn't give it away to some terrorist. He would use it as leverage with his his regional neighbors and the international community. That was the Saddam WMD threat even with actual weapons. I mean, really. You undertake an enormous effort to construct the miracle weapon, and as a Stalinist dictator interested in no ideology beyond personal power -- you give that weapon to people who hate you as much as the infidels. Or, you use it against America somehow and end everything you worked so hard to build in the blink of an eye. Frankly, Pakistan was/is a much greater threat because they already had a number of Islamic bombs, religious power factions sympathetic to Bin Ladin (he may even be in some part of Pakistan today) and not the greatest political stability. One toppled Govt. away from "Here cousin, I have a present for the infidels."

And yet, as soon as Afghanistan calmed down target #1 was Iraq. Actually, people like Richard Clark show that it was target #1 on 9/12, where Wolfie was busting his bellybutton to avoid any suggestion of some al Queda group -- it was Saddam all the way.

And didn't that strike you a bit odd, that rapid shift to Iraq. I mean, an Islamic fundamentalist terrorist kills 3000+ Americans, topples landmark buildings in our financial capital, and yet suddenly Bin Ladin is an afterthought.

Quote
I don't know where bin Ladin is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, responding to a question about bin Ladin's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)


Wow. Not even a year had passed and the man responsible for the worst attack on American soil in modern history is "unimportant." Yet, Iraq is suddenly very important. Perhaps, because Bush, an apparent fan of neoconservative concepts at some level obviously, decides their master plan will clean up the whole ****ing mess once and for all. Why deal with a pissant like Bin Ladin when you can put all those Middle East *******s in their place and be done with it. Hard to explain such a complex concept to the American people and get their support, but... not hard to put the fear of a mushroom could over NY into their heads. Not hard either for me to see this exact scenario playing out. Not hard for a lot of folk in Washington either. Openly discussed, if not heavily, before, during and after the war. Saw first hand Helen Thomas ask about it and pay the price. Watched Kristol describe the process on PBS with a simle on his face of great satisfaction at the time.

Personally, I as I have stated several times IMO WMD was on a laundry list of reasons why regime change in Iraq would not be such a bad thing. A sound and fully legal justification, and I believe it is still technically legally valid even with no WMD being found. I don't even believe that Bush lied about them being there, but I have no doubt it was more of the excuse than the driver. It just doesn't make all that much sense otherwise compared to the existing, much more direct  threats in the region and elsewhere. If anything Saddam served as a brutal, yet effective buffer to these very elements while in power.


Charon
« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 10:53:52 PM by Charon »

Offline FUNKED1

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6866
      • http://soldatensender.blogspot.com/
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2006, 11:18:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
You'll have to explain "created".


We've had threads about this for months if not years.  There was even a TV show about it.  Check your PM.
Summary:  What they did was create their own informal national security organization that bypassed the NSA and CIA.  They trumped up incorrect WMD intelligence which they used to mislead the American people, the UN, and ultimately Congress.  Probably Bush too.  PNAC guys were responsible for the intel as well as the war plan and the day to day operations.  If that's not creating the war, what is?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 11:22:12 PM by FUNKED1 »

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2006, 12:53:57 AM »
Funked, only socialists oppose an organization of liberal hawks.

Get with the program.
sand

Offline PonyDriver

  • Parolee
  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 94
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2006, 05:35:10 AM »
Quote
The U.S. used diplomacy to keep Libya from building nuclear weapons.


Ya, we bombed the piss out of some of Kadafi's houses, making him realize his life expectancy was quite short if he continued on his path at the time.

He changed his tune and voila..... he's still alive.

Offline lukster

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2581
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2006, 07:56:40 AM »
Bush may have exaggerated the WMD but that doesn't change the fact that Saddam was violently violating the cease fire agreement to which he agreed in '91. It's convenient to forget about that when all you want to do is hate Bush isn't it?

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2006, 08:26:16 AM »
Ok... so according to charons list... I don't think that there are any "neo cons"

I think it is a sunday morning round table boogey man.  

The democrats are in a tough position that they put themselves in.  Even before Bush was elected their leaders were talking about how dangerous the sadman was... when they got the same data as Bush they were all for going in to get the old sadman.

Now... the war is dragging on and people are...  can you believe it... Dying!   It isn't over after the typical American attention spand for such things.... 2 years....  There are lefty groups protesting.... and they are core democrat demonstrators..

Bad news.... no real disheartened troops to parade around like kerry and co in vietnam... no drugged out conscripts...  Nope... whatever you do... don't interview the troops on this one... they don't know what's good for em.... probly neo cons anyway.

Again.... I don't like Bush and his socialist agenda but the war doesn't bother me.   I want us to train the iraqis to run their own security and then get out.   I realize this may take a while.   Never thought it wouldn't

I would love to see someone better than Bush in power but I can't think of any democrat that would be even a tenth as good for what I want... any democrat in power will simply increase the rate to which we go to the welfare state.

We will probly have to import ice bears as a UN mandate.

Bush himself sucks but...Bush put in 2 supreme court judges and many lesser one.... they are lifetime appointements... Bush rolled back attacks on the second amendment to the point that he allmost gutted the ani gun nut movement for a few terms...  Just making it impossible to sue gunmakers for making a good product probly saved the industry and us....l Do you honestly think a democrat would have saved the gun makers?

Nope... call it whatever you want neo con neo lib whatever.... raise pat and mathews on your shoulders as the new heros... it is all BS...

They have not alternative... the democratic party is a toxic solution... the cure they offer will kill the patient.

lazs

Offline T0J0

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1056
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2006, 08:53:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
1. I Didn't mention Bush here.
2.  Your continued use of ad hominem is weak.  If you are right, why not discuss the facts at hand instead of attacking the other people in the discussion?


I guess by text book definition that would absolutely be "Weak Ad hominem"
considering that the BDS reference was delivered as humor...  and meant as humor.
Clear it up for me then? do you find the policies or principles of the PNAC disturbing or threatening?
If the PNAC's beliefs are ultimately positive is that a bad thing... If the Democrats
champion PNAC beliefs in the future wil they all of a sudden become a great thing?

TJ

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2006, 09:14:44 AM »
I'm going to go out on a limb on this one... Funked isn't a democrat.
sand

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2006, 09:18:37 AM »
funked didn't used to be a democrat.   He is a teacher now and hangs out with em in the lunch room.

lazs

Offline FUNKED1

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6866
      • http://soldatensender.blogspot.com/
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2006, 03:35:09 PM »
I haven't voted Democrat in my life, and won't be anytime soon.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
"Fight or Run" A.C.
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2006, 06:22:41 PM »
So how did PNAC subvert the intelligence agencies of all the other countries that agreed with the NIE on Iraq?

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/Production/files/podhoretz1205advance.html

Quote
In the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) of 2002, where their collective views were summarized, one of the conclusions offered with “high confidence” was that

Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological, nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions.

The intelligence agencies of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and—yes—France all agreed with this judgment.


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/

Quote
David Kay appeared before the Senate Armed Services Committee shortly after he resigned as special advisor to the Iraq Survey Group. Kay states, referring to the expectation that there would be substantial stocks of, and production lines for, chemical and biological weapons in Iraq, that "we were almost all wrong, and I certainly include myself here." He also notes that other foreign intelligence agencies, including the French and the German, also had believed that Iraq possessed such stocks and production lines.

In addition, he discusses the issue of whether political pressure had any impact on the content of the October 2002 national intelligence estimate (Document 15). Kay also notes that "based on the work of the Iraq Survey Group … Iraq was in clear violation of the terms of [U.N.] Resolution 1441. He goes on to note the discovery of hundreds of instances of activities prohibited by U.N. Resolution 687.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!