Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield'

[Rude]

What about simple negligence on the part of the UN?

This is not the first time UN observers have died....why place your personnel in a place of such danger? Does the benefit outweigh cost?
What benefit could possibly be worth the death of those men to the UN?

Wonder if we'll get to read the emails from those that died...the one's that stated, Hey....can we get out of here?

[Sparks]

Eflie your post

All this hand wringing over dead Lebanese civilians, where was your hand wringing over dead Israeli civilians? Where is your sympathy for Israelis that have lost loved ones due to terrorist attacks? Where is your outrage when terrorist rockets fall on Israeli cities? Where is your outrage when terrorists blow up Israeli school busses? Where is your outrage when Hezbollah fires rockets that they intentionally set up just outside UN observation posts? Fact is, your outrage (at least on this BBS) is non-existent when it comes to the terrorists.

Yes I suppose I have been quiet on the side of the Isreali deaths and that got me thinking why; I suppose you react (for instance posting on a BBS) to things that shock you or anger you.  The acts that the terrorists commit have become so normalized now that I am no longer shocked and although I still feel the outrage and sorrow for the families I no longer react - that isn't to say my feelings towards the events have changed.   That I responded to this situation is probably because I expected better of the Israelis - expected them to be more compassionate towards the local population - especially considering their last experince in Lebanon.

Guns - have you ever actualy been to Europe or lived in a European country ?? You trot out this statement about Europeans being anti-semetic without anything to base it on - please illuminate your assertion with some examples.

IMHO this can only be stopped by a ceasefire and then an armed NATO force being established in southern Lebanon at the invitation of the Lebanese government with the authority to use full force to stop terrorist activity.

The Lebanese governement was a freely elected government of the people without outside interference - what better way to enforce the legitamacy of the fight against terrorism than at the invitation of a freely elected Middle Eastern government.

Elfie is right - the death of Israeli citizens is an outrage and has to stop but the current reaction is dis-proportionate and - much worse - it is counter productive. Israelis are still dying and the number of people wanting to see them dead is increasing.

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by Elfie
Take the new US artillery round for example, Excalibur. It's a gps guided round. If it hits within 10 meters or so of it's intended target it is considered a success. Not all of these munitions are as *precision* as we have been lead to believe.

A note, you picked the least precise 'precision' munition.  I'm certain it is an oversight, as a standard modern artillery round is considered a success if it lands within 270 meters of its target from extreme range.  The bombs and cruise missiles, otoh, have sub meter accuracy.  Also, the 30 meter figure is the outside limit of expected accuracy for the XM982

...but don't let these facts get in the way of a good rant!  

[LePaul]

I guess what angers me most over this is how people forget how many times Israel has done as the rest of the world asked of it.

UN and Company tell them they get peace if they leave Lebanon.  Or give up these lands.  And those.  And what to they get?  More bombings, more attacks, etc etc.

People seem to have a really short memory about these things.  They *have* done it the UN way.  They complied, others did not.

So when your borders are attacked, soldiers taken hostage, etc etc...finally enough is enough.

Again, I'll point out how its stupid how all the coverage is one sided....with the media boohoo'ing for Lebanon and not the Israeli's, who have been hammered with more and more rockets...and now some with longer ranges.

[lukster]

Originally posted by Thrawn
Absolutely.  It's saddly ironic that the reason the observers where there was to facilitate such an investigation by being neutral observers of such crimes.  Now they are being pulled out, and prosecuting for war crimes I imagine will be that much more difficult.  

 

Warcrimes? Like the terrorist acts over the last few decades and every rocket fired by Hezbolla into civillian targets? How many of these thousands of terrorists has the UN brought to justice? I think what you mean is too bad they won't be there to hold Israel in check.

[Maverick]

Sparks,

Your source for the ratio of hezbolah missiles landing in open areas vs the city of Haifa? Next question. Don't you feel the INTENT of hezbollah launching missiles into Haifa is to kill civillians as the target? Last question, can you let us know when the hezbollaw sent leaflets warning the civilian population that an attack was imminent and to evacuate?

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Rude
and your solution the the aged conflict in the ME is what?

The whole middle east?  I have some ideas, but I think I'll stick to Lebanon/Israel as I posted above.

What about simple negligence on the part of the UN?

This is not the first time UN observers have died....why place your personnel in a place of such danger? Does the benefit outweigh cost?
What benefit could possibly be worth the death of those men to the UN?

That's the exact question I asked above.

"The situation becomes confusing for me when the observers become the victims in the sense of whether or not to pull them out. Does their presence deter more than it promotes an environment where war crimes are commited more often? It's so self-referential."


I get the feeling that in your rush to criticise me you missed some of my posts in this thread.

[Toad]

The UN isn't going to insert an active combat force on the Lebanese border. Period. Not    Going    To    Happen   Ever.

I would think this is obvious to even the most casual observer.

Inserting such a force would be a de facto hunt for Hez.

The Israelis aren't going to be in Lebanon if such a force were there. The Israelis aren't going to attack such a force if it were there.

OTOH, Hez will still be trying to shoot projectiles into Israel, kidnap Israeli soldiers in cross border ops and trying to smuggle the suicide bombers across the border.

As a result, it'd be the UN Force VS Hez, in open conflict.

Is there ANYONE that really believes the UN would dare such action?

[soda72]

Originally posted by Toad
Is there ANYONE that really believes the UN would dare such action?

nope....

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Chairboy
A note, you picked the least precise 'precision' munition.  I'm certain it is an oversight, as a standard modern artillery round is considered a success if it lands within 270 meters of its target from extreme range.  The bombs and cruise missiles, otoh, have sub meter accuracy.  Also, the 30 meter figure is the outside limit of expected accuracy for the XM982

...but don't let these facts get in the way of a good rant!  

It was just an example. Nothing more.

[Elfie]

Yes I suppose I have been quiet on the side of the Isreali deaths and that got me thinking why; I suppose you react (for instance posting on a BBS) to things that shock you or anger you. The acts that the terrorists commit have become so normalized now that I am no longer shocked and although I still feel the outrage and sorrow for the families I no longer react - that isn't to say my feelings towards the events have changed. That I responded to this situation is probably because I expected better of the Israelis - expected them to be more compassionate towards the local population - especially considering their last experince in Lebanon.

Fair enough Sparks

I think we all become less sensitive to the terrorist attacks over time. I think thats normal for us humans.

I dont really *expect better out of the Israelis*, I expect the Israeli gov't to react violently to attacks on their citizens, same as I expect my gov't to react just as violently in regards to attacks on US civilians. Maybe thats why I am not so shocked by what is happening in Lebabon now.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by LePaul
I guess what angers me most over this is how people forget how many times Israel has done as the rest of the world asked of it.

UN and Company tell them they get peace if they leave Lebanon.  Or give up these lands.  And those.  And what to they get?  More bombings, more attacks, etc etc.

People seem to have a really short memory about these things.  They *have* done it the UN way.  They complied, others did not.

So when your borders are attacked, soldiers taken hostage, etc etc...finally enough is enough.

Again, I'll point out how its stupid how all the coverage is one sided....with the media boohoo'ing for Lebanon and not the Israeli's, who have been hammered with more and more rockets...and now some with longer ranges.

Spot on imo LePaul.

[bj229r]

Originally posted by Momus--
Seagoon, the problem is that even a majority of the large Lebanese Christian population see Hezbollah as a legitimate organisation, so to ascribe their actions to Islamic anti-semitism is clearly inaccurate. People in the region have long memories; Israel's role in the bloody civil war and the subsequent invasion and large scale bloodshed and destruction on an equally dubious pretext in 1982 is still very fresh in local memories.

Events today are not taking place in a vaccuum; this is why your comparision of Israeli necessities with those of the WW2 allies is flawed. Israel is not fighting a war of liberation or even of national survival even though this is what they want you to think. Israel is the regional superpower that has accepted a low-level conflict with groups like Hezbollah and Hamas as the price it pays for it's still ongoing colonisation of the West Bank and the negative effect on regional sensibilities that the settlement program has. Have you forgotten already what prompted the Hezbollah raid that sparked this latest episode? It was a reaction to the post-pullout blockage of Gaza imposed by the IDF and in particular to the bombing of power and water infrastructure targets following the kidnapping of the Israeli corporal last month; bombing that amounted to little more than the collective and disproportionate punishment of the civilian population of Gaza.

This is why I've got such as issue with Israel's current campaign and not just with the UN casualties. Israel has consistently done nothing to ease the tensions that lead to outbreaks such as this latest, then dons the mantle of the aggreived party at the first opportunity when in reality it carries an equal share of the guilt. Couple this with has a history of disregard for the safety of neutrals and civlians who happen to be in the IDF's line of fire and that's a good reason to be critical of Israeli actions.

Also, from the article Ripsnort quoted:

ahem.


Refugees
Christians Fleeing Lebanon Denounce Hezbollah

But for some of the Christians who had made it out in this convoy, it was not just privations they wanted to talk about, but their ordeal at the hands of Hezbollah — a contrast to the *****es, who make up a vast majority of the population in southern Lebanon and broadly support the militia.

“Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets,” said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village. “They are shooting from between our houses.”

“Please,’’ he added, “write that in your newspaper.”.............




.....Many Christians from Ramesh and Ain Ebel considered Hezbollah’s fighting methods as much of an outrage as the Israeli strikes. Mr. Amar said Hezbollah fighters in groups of two and three had come into Ain Ebel, less than a mile from Bint Jbail, where most of the fighting has occurred. They were using it as a base to shoot rockets, he said, and the Israelis fired back......................... ..................

One woman, who would not give her name because she had a government job and feared retribution, said Hezbollah fighters had killed a man who was trying to leave Bint Jbail.

“This is what’s happening, but no one wants to say it” for fear of Hezbollah, she said. .

This, from the notoriously right-wing New York Times (albeit page A19)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/world/middleeast/28refugees.html?_r=6&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=login&oref=login

[LePaul]

I saw a clip over the weekend....Arabs...yes, Arabs...who live in Northern Israel falling victim to these rockets.

How oh how could they do this to their "Arab Brothers"....  

[Elfie]

Israel is the regional superpower that has accepted a low-level conflict with groups like Hezbollah and Hamas as the price it pays for it's still ongoing colonisation of the West Bank and the negative effect on regional sensibilities that the settlement program has.

What happened when Israel pulled it's military and settlers out of the Gaza Strip? Attacks from Gaza by militants. What will happen when Israel finally pulls out of the West Bank also? My guess is nothing will change except the targets.