Gloves are off...

[Naso]

Originally posted by Jekyll:
It's like the Clint Eastwood movie, "The Outlaw Josie Wales", where the Indian says "The Devil's come to breakfast."

Real life is'nt a movie.  

I dont think only USA and Russia will participate to this future "international antiterrorism police", I bet Europe will be in first line too.

It's the minimum I excpect from my government.  

[leon]

I really hope US government thinks cooler and smarter then Toad does, if not it is one way ticket to a worldwide disaster ...  

[Pepe]

Naso,

It's time for the military, not the police. Spanish people is fiting a war against terrorists for nearly 40 years. We have been cheating ourselves thinking this was not war, this was a political problem, police & common sense was enough to solve the problem, and things like that.

I'm confident U.S.A. will take the right approach to deal with this problem, and I hope the rest of western countries finally pull the bandage out of their eyes. Face it. This is not a police issue. This is a military one. This is War. Western countries way of living/thinking, against fanatism/fundamentalism whatever you want to call it.

I think police will have to act, but this is a military problem.

[Tuomio]

I think theres no country who wouldnt be with USA on this one, except the guilty ones.

Its very very likely, that the trails lead to Afghanistan. That country has no allies that i know, so you could bomb its bellybutton out with no resistance.

[Naso]

Pepe, so you think to solve the basque problem by bombing Victoria and Bilbao?

Or the middlewest problem exterminating Palestinians?

Or the fundamentalism by waging a new crusade?

Are you so simpleminded?

I dont think so, this is only rage screaming in our ears.

Found the responsables? Yes!

Grant justice (or kill them)? Yes!

This is Police stuff.

The military stuff is to attack a nation regardless of guilty or innocent, remember 60 years ago.

But, if a nation (and i wonder if anyone is so crazy to do it), stand clearly in side of the guilty, opposing to the police option, then, will be time to the military to step in.

And God help Afganistan or wathever it is, if we come to this option (yes, i said
WE ).

[Pepe]

Naso,

I don't think you are a simpleminded person too.

What I mean is that cheating ourselves thinking we (western countries) are not at war with this scum people won't help us any good. I'm not proposing bombing any city around the world. But ETA terrorists and this ones are different faces of the very same thing. IRA ones exactly the same. This is the difficulty of this issue. You have to change grounds and talk about ideology, ethics, way of living instead of particular countries. The easy measures will ben when a country support this way of acting in any way or manner. The difficult ones when a country is not clearly available to blame.

I do not discard any measure. Even a new crusade. Unfortunately for us, the situation is very complex, and can't be forseen. Among the clear facts is that the one and only long term weapon in this war is MONEY. Oil resources are the only way of getting to it for a big amount of this people. Draw your own conclusions.

The military is fully involved (it has to, I hope it is) in this process. From intelligence (especially) to army, navy, ground forces they are hands and feet into this. Police alone simply does not have the means to cope with this. Hoping that Police measures are enough is a big mistake.

Again, as I'm seeing this, it's not a matter of country X or country Z. We have to go through a complete change in our point of views. It's not a war between countries, unfortunately. But, mark my words, this attack is only a landmark of worse things to come. Western world, as it is today, is very vulnerable. More, it's not defendable by conventional means. Today has been 4 planes. Tomorrow will be VX gas, or poisoning dams, or whatever. They've proved they can do it. The mere existance of the threat justify (IMHO) military presence, and military means.

I don't want PC Police to deal with this. I would want a formal War declaration against this kind of people, and any supporter. I think palestinian people cheering on the streets are guilty of this. The mere act of feeling glad about this is a simptom that their mind are utmost pervert. No goodwill human being can be happy about this. No "whatever bad made to my enemy is my good" justifications. They are guilty. Worse, on seeing them yesterday nite, I feel anyone of them could be the next committer. I'm not ready to bear with that. I'm not thinking they are innocent people anymore. Even small brainwashed children are not. Maybe they are ill, maybe they need treatment, definitely they do not deserve me trusting their good intentions.

Western countries have been long felt guilty about their own welfare. This feeling has driven them to care a lot about the consequences of their acts. Our moral standards had driven us to be softer and more comprehensive about those poor people forced to defend their believes by means of throwing bombs. We coudn't see we (not israelis, or irish or whatever target) we, people that won't throw bombs to defend our points of view, were their REAL targets. Now it's clear to me that all of us are targets. All of us are "the Great Satan". No matter if U.S. are target of islamic fundamentalist rebels or I am a target of a basque fundamentalist rebel.

[Jochen]

We need to declare all out WAR on the country that is hosting these lunatics. I am incredibly angry, and wish nothing but death and misery on, not only those directly responsible, but on the country that plays hosts to these types of people!

Do I read this right?

If those are US citizens (small change but real possibility after Oklahoma!) you are willing to perform purges on your own country?

Also, US is know to be important place for IRA fundraisers and maybe even for some terrorists. Do you still think we hould blindly attack those countries, including US?

This is not as black and white as some may think.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Jochen ]

[Naso]

Originally posted by Pepe:
Naso,

I don't think you are a simpleminded person too.

Thank you  

 

Originally posted by Pepe:

What I mean is that cheating ourselves thinking we (western countries) are not at war with this scum people won't help us any good. I'm not proposing bombing any city around the world. But ETA terrorists and this ones are different faces of the very same thing. IRA ones exactly the same. This is the difficulty of this issue. You have to change grounds and talk about ideology, ethics, way of living instead of particular countries. The easy measures will ben when a country support this way of acting in any way or manner. The difficult ones when a country is not clearly available to blame.

Never asked yourself who started this war, long time ago?
Yes we are at war, but we was in it before you even can think, with all the different economical and moral systems than ours, and the war still goes on.

 

Originally posted by Pepe:

I do not discard any measure. Even a new crusade. Unfortunately for us, the situation is very complex, and can't be forseen. Among the clear facts is that the one and only long term weapon in this war is MONEY. Oil resources are the only way of getting to it for a big amount of this people. Draw your own conclusions.

MONEY is, and was our weapon in this war.
This horrendous fact will show you that our enemy's weapon is desperation and we bring that in theyr hands.

 

Originally posted by Pepe:

The military is fully involved (it has to, I hope it is) in this process. From intelligence (especially) to army, navy, ground forces they are hands and feet into this. Police alone simply does not have the means to cope with this. Hoping that Police measures are enough is a big mistake.

Military is and was involved in this process and will be happy involved in future.
And the police I was talking about is'nt the usual policeman, but a good mix between police, military, and James Bond-like men.

 

Originally posted by Pepe:

Again, as I'm seeing this, it's not a matter of country X or country Z. We have to go through a complete change in our point of views. It's not a war between countries, unfortunately. But, mark my words, this attack is only a landmark of worse things to come. Western world, as it is today, is very vulnerable. More, it's not defendable by conventional means. Today has been 4 planes. Tomorrow will be VX gas, or poisoning dams, or whatever. They've proved they can do it. The mere existance of the threat justify (IMHO) military presence, and military means.

The western world is vulnerable because of the trust he pose in military option.
And the WTC facts show how useful are our military to defend us against this attacks.
The new view that we need to have is that we cannot act as the big and strong ignorant dude in the block and dont expect the little guy kick us soon or later in the balls.

 

Originally posted by Pepe:

I don't want PC Police to deal with this.

I'm Italian, PCness is somethink that is part of US culture, I'm not US, and I dont care less about PCness.
Understand?

 

Originally posted by Pepe:

 I would want a formal War declaration against this kind of people, and any supporter. I think palestinian people cheering on the streets are guilty of this. The mere act of feeling glad about this is a simptom that their mind are utmost pervert. No goodwill human being can be happy about this. No "whatever bad made to my enemy is my good" justifications. They are guilty. Worse, on seeing them yesterday nite, I feel anyone of them could be the next committer. I'm not ready to bear with that. I'm not thinking they are innocent people anymore. Even small brainwashed children are not. Maybe they are ill, maybe they need treatment, definitely they do not deserve me trusting their good intentions.

The scenes you have seen in TV are the same you will see when Afganistan (probably the next enemy) will be reduced to glowing dust, with only geographical differences.
The cheering will be on western country's streets.
Where's the difference?

 

Originally posted by Pepe:

Western countries have been long felt guilty about their own welfare. This feeling has driven them to care a lot about the consequences of their acts. Our moral standards had driven us to be softer and more comprehensive about those poor people forced to defend their believes by means of throwing bombs. We coudn't see we (not israelis, or irish or whatever target) we, people that won't throw bombs to defend our points of view, were their REAL targets. Now it's clear to me that all of us are targets. All of us are "the Great Satan". No matter if U.S. are target of islamic fundamentalist rebels or I am a target of a basque fundamentalist rebel.

Yeah, that's true, we are the enemy.

We have a lot, we eat every day, we have land, money, energy.

They have nothing, no money, no land, no energy, even no food.

And we dont ask ourselves what's wrong, why they hate so much, we just want to kill them all.

We have many things to lose, and we are'nt invulnerable, they have nothing to lose.

Only theyr life.

And they are billions

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Naso ]

[Ghosth]

Naso makes a good point.

As long as there are hungry people in the world. As long as some people are denied the basic needs of shelter, sanitation, clothing.

It will be entirely too easy to recruit them for terrorist training.

While I agree those responsible must be hunted down. We also need to find a way to see to it that EVERY person in every country has at least the bare essentials for health & survival.

[Naso]

Thank you ghosth, you understand what I was meaning perfectly.

It's difficult in this emotional moments to find the words to explain in (for me) a foreign language, I've always fear to be misunderstud.

Pepe, I hope you can understand the pain and the fear I'm feeling in this moment.

We are on the edge.

[Pepe]

Naso,

There are very good points on your post. I feel your pain and fear, as it is my own.

As for the starting thing, I don't think it matters right now. War has been around and, cynically, it can be said that it's part of human nature. Western countries had make an effort to solve problems without using physical force. Not only in international problems, but in their internal affairs. I grant you it's only a try, and the results can be questionable. But, want it or not, we are in one war right now (maybe the same old one) and we can't afford to lose it. It's our way of living, our way of thinking what's at sake.

Money is the weapon in every war. The horrendous fact is that some people is using people's faith and beliefs to fool them about where is the enemy. Our enemy's weapon is not desperation. Desperation is his tool, sometimes. Some other times is ideology. We have lost that weapon in our road to success. We are not firm enough when it comes to defending our principles.

Western world is vulnerable because our way of living. WTC shows that we face an unconventional war, it shows that anyone of us can be the next target, it shows that there's not a clear enemy, and it shows it can't be fought by conventional means. I think we are saying the same thing with different words, once you made clear what you meant by Police.

I want to think that we would not cherish in the streets if we bomb 40.000 innocent civilians. I want to think that that we are not brainwashing our children so they die before us in the trenches, or commit suicide against the enemy. I want to think that we rather like to die in the place of our children, and not the opposite. That's the difference I see: we use a different scale of values.

Who has no money?  Who has no land? Who has no energy? Are you referring to palestinians? Trees don't let you see the forest. I concur they have nothing to lose. They've lost all in the process. Afghanistan is supported by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. No money there? No energy there?. Who is supporting I.R.A.? No money there as well? No, Naso. You are focusing only on the external face of the problem. The deep heart of it is people who wants to impose their philosophy of life, their beliefs over other ones. As it's always been the case. The difference lies in the beliefs. In XII century, Arab civilization would be the "good guy" in this war. Nowadays, I feel we are the good ones.

Perhaps our sin has been not to be beligerant. Seeing, for example, these Afghan women and do nothing about it. Seeing how palestinian people teach their children to suicide, and do nothing. Seeing Israel not respecting civil rights, and do nothing. Seeing a bomb blasting in another country, feel the shame, and do nothing. Under the "internal affairs" aliby and commercial interests, perhaps western countries have been looking to these problems with a blind eye, I don't deny this. But now the line is drawn, and we can't act this way anymore. We have to change our way of thinking, and be active in defending our points of view, as they are doing with theirs. Or we will be digging our own tumb.

[blur]

Originally posted by jihad:
Whatever it takes to hunt the responsible scumbags down is OK in my opinion, I hope the CIA has some assassins on their payroll.

Osama bin Laden is CIA trained.

[CavemanJ]

Originally posted by Jochen:


Do I read this right?

If those are US citizens (small change but real possibility after Oklahoma!) you are willing to perform purges on your own country?

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Jochen ]

Yer gawddamn right.  If some militant group in the US is responsible line the bastards up, with out blindfolds.  I'll kneecap'em fore they're put down for good.  That goes for whatever group is responsible.

This attack has the potential to be the cause of the largest single day death toll of any event in the history of the United States.  IIRC that record is held by a Civil War battle around Gettysburg at 22,000.

This even has alread passed up the OK City bombing which killed 168 people.  More than that died on just the aircraft that went in.

[Naso]

For most part I agree with you, but there are some points i need to point at.

 

Originally posted by Pepe:
It's our way of living, our way of thinking what's at sake.

Sadly, is the same thing they say of us.

 

I want to think that we would not cherish in the streets if we bomb 40.000 innocent civilians. I want to think that that we are not brainwashing our children so they die before us in the trenches, or commit suicide against the enemy.

Sorry but I cannot swear on this, when Saddam was kicked in the arse there were people (yeah, I confess, me too   ), happy and opening champagne bottles, and dancing on the graves.
And if you look at the thread about muslims and arabs in this BBS, you can read clear sign of mindwashing, with people bashing something that they absolutely dont know, or better witch only information were the media's biased view.

 

Who has no money?  Who has no land? Who has no energy? Are you referring to palestinians? Trees don't let you see the forest. I concur they have nothing to lose. They've lost all in the process. Afghanistan is supported by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. No money there? No energy there?. Who is supporting I.R.A.? No money there as well? No, Naso. You are focusing only on the external face of the problem.

I'am referring to people, those becoming soldiers and/or victims in this future war, not the big bosses that will stay in safe places, untouched.
They are the forest, not the few trees that we need to cut.
Remember, you are asking to cut the entire forest to cure the infective disease of a small number of trees.

 

Perhaps our sin has been not to be beligerant. Seeing, for example, these Afghan women and do nothing about it. Seeing how palestinian people teach their children to suicide, and do nothing. Seeing Israel not respecting civil rights, and do nothing. Seeing a bomb blasting in another country, feel the shame, and do nothing. Under the "internal affairs" aliby and commercial interests, perhaps western countries have been looking to these problems with a blind eye, I don't deny this. But now the line is drawn, and we can't act this way anymore. We have to change our way of thinking, and be active in defending our points of view, as they are doing with theirs. Or we will be digging our own tumb.

I have quoted this not to disagree, but to say:

Yes, I agree

[Skuzzy]

Yes Jochen,..I stand by what I said.  I don't care where they are, or who is harboring them.  Take them out with complete malice and forethought.