France sides with Hezbollah

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Yes it would be apart from a small detail -

They were 'captured' for eventual use in a prisoner swap, so in effect are in fact HOSTIGES.

Capturing hostiges is AGAINST the Geneva Convention, but then again why should this surprise anyone from a group of thugs who break the Convention at every opportunity.

1) Blending in with the Civilian population.
2) Using civilians to hide weapons.
3) Using civilian areas to launch attacks.
4) Using protected structures to hide weapons caches.

Funny how one side is expected to abide by all rules of war while a blind eye is turned towards others.

These thugs aren't even subject to being classed as combatants -
1) Must have a clear chain of command
2) Must be distinguishable form the civilian populaiton
3) Must carry arms openly
4) Must abide by the laws of armed conflict

That is another thing that many people ignore/forget. It's a valid point imo.

[Rolex]

It's a good question, Toad. I would like to hear your opinion on it. I know you know there is no definitive answer, only opinions.

Here's mine - based on little else than my gut: I'd compare it to radioactive decay.

I'll just use the word 'occuption' in the general context of occupying land belonging to others.

I think there might be a half-life of 2 generations in the case of a benevolent occupation. The more oppressive the occupation, the longer the half-life of the isotope.

For example, the benevolent occupations of post WWII Germany and Japan relieved hardships and rebuilt infrastructure resulting in both nations becoming contributors to the world, yet we still see people hostile to their generational peers after 2 generations. I guess there will be half as many after 2 more generations. Just my guess.

The contrast in the two 20th century, post-war conditions placed on Germany might be a good example.

Could Israel be considered an extreme example of eminent domain?

Imagine the UN decided tomorrow that Native Americans will be given an area of land comprising portions of Washington D.C., Maryland and Virginia to form a homeland and nation. We could even throw in the mix that China will be its strategic umbrella and supply the new nations military. And the new Native American nation had a nuclear capability.

Call me a pessimist, but I think current residents of those areas, regardless of how many generations they had lived there, would be a little upset about it. Some would even resist with force. And people in other states would be outraged by seeing their 'bretheren' driven from their land and many would advocate driving the new nation into the sea.

And that ends my analogy to the middle east today.

--------

Israeli occupation of Lebanon and Gaza has been anything but benevolent. It systematically destroyed the economy of Lebanon. Beruit used to be a beautiful and vibrant city, economically and culturally. There are just as many Israelis who were/are just as intent in driving Lebanese and Palastinians into the sea as there are Lebanese and Palastinians intent on driving Israelis into the sea.

I believe the leaders of hezbollah and Israel are both unmotivated to peacefully co-exist.

Hezbollah's reason for existence would evaporate if Israel pulled back to the blue line and released long-held Lebanese prisoners. Israel would have nothing to lose by doing that, but Israel will never do that because its leadership wants to root out moderates who seek any form of Arab-Israeli relations.

Olmert and Nasrallah both depend on each other for probes, provocation and hostility to maintain support to their causes from the people they represent, and from outside countries who support them. There are no moderates leading any of the factions or nations.

Yes, Lebanese police and much of the non-western media say without question that Israeli soldiers were inside Lebanon on July 12th when hezbollah attacked them. As the battle went on, the Israelis retreated back into Israel and hezbollah pursued them across the border.

The Israelis and western media say the opposite. Your view is based on which media you see, not the facts, whatever they may be. Or is it even relevant if both leaders are itching for a fight?

[Elfie]

It's not just this incident that sparked this latest round of violence Rolex, it's a whole series of events since Israel withdrew from Lebanon the first time.

[Shuckins]

For several decades now moderates on both sides of the Arab/Israeli conflict have been intimidated and marginalized.

Moderates were willing to work together to effect a reconciliation of their differences.  But they've not been given the chance.

Radicals could have compromised and made room for the Israelis over there, but they would really rather not.  Thousands of moderate Arabs have been murdered for daring to pursue peace.

As long as the Radicals continue to muck up the peace efforts over there there will be no peace.

[PonyDriver]

For several decades now moderates on both sides of the Arab/Israeli conflict have been intimidated and marginalized.

Can you site an instance or article where an Israeli moderator was either of these?

[Shuckins]

I'm referring to the use of violence by radical islamic-fundamentalists to intimidate moderates on both sides and thereby subvert efforts to reach a peaceful resolution to the conflict.

What are YOU referring to?

[FUNKED1]

I don't know why some of you guys bother.  When facts meet Neocon brainwashing it's no contest...

[Hazzer]

The Key to the whole middle East and it's problems is a Palistinian state,without it this and other regional conflicts will go on ad-infinitum.

[PonyDriver]

What are YOU referring to?

I was just trying to get clarification on your statement, wanted to be  sure I inderstood it correctly

[bozon]

Originally posted by Rolex
It systematically destroyed the economy of Lebanon. Beruit used to be a beautiful and vibrant city, economically and culturally. There are just as many Israelis who were/are just as intent in driving Lebanese and Palastinians into the sea as there are Lebanese and Palastinians intent on driving Israelis into the sea.
...
Hezbollah's reason for existence would evaporate if Israel pulled back to the blue line and released long-held Lebanese prisoners.
...
Your view is based on which media you see, not the facts, whatever they may be.

ok Rolex, you either don't read what I wrote the previous page or you just ignore it.

Beirut was not destroyed by Israel, not in 1982 when it was destroyed by the civil war even before Israel reached it not today where only one neighborhood named Dahia in the south of the city was bombed. All the ruined buildinds you see in the news are from that neigborhood. Other residental parts of the city were not bombed.

Israel has no interest in "driving Lebanese into the sea". Israel has no teritorial claims from Lebanon and never had. Israel has an interest in keeping Lebanon independent and out of Syrian hands. I don't know where you got this idea from.

Let me explain something to you about the "blue line". That is the line marked by the UN when Israel pulled out of Lebanon in august 2000. This line certifies that Israel has withdrew completely from Lebanon. Israel has not violated this line since 2000, but Hizballa forces have crossed it several times and shot at Israeli forces on the Israeli side every 2-3 months in the past 6 years. So Israel already withdrew to the blue line.

Almost all Lebanese prisoners were released a few years ago in exchange for 3 soldier bodies (kidnapped by Hizballa from the Israeli side) and 1 kidnapped business man (that I wish they'd kept him). Currenlty there are 3 Lebanese held by Israel. Samir Kuntar was part of a terrorist group that in 1979 came ashore Naharia, took over a family home and murdered the father and a child. He was captured in Israel and sentensed to life. That is not a prisoner of war, nor a kidnapped. The other one is a woman who illegaly entered Israel, I guess she'd be released sooner or later anyway. I forgot who the 3rd one is.

My view is not based on the Media. I actually live in Israel, served in the army and still serve in reserve duty. In anything that has to do with the military or intelligence I know enough from 1st source or able to find out, without the "service" of the media.

[Rolex]

Hi bozon,

You're right, I didn't read your earlier post. I've reached the stage - not necessarily this topic only - where I scan the name and the first line because I know pretty much what they're going to say and how they're going to say it. Many don't know the difference between a discussion and an argument, or think their insults are clever, leaving a small number who actually have something interesting or informative to say.

Sorry, I'm afraid I scanned over yours, but I'll watch more carefully for your posts since I think you're sincere.

I think I said that the Lebanese economy was destroyed. I try to write precisely, but sometimes fail miserably, bozon.

But, as far as Beruit, is the information below incorrect?

"Beirut suffered grievously between June 6, 1982, when Israeli troops first crossed the Lebanese border, and September 16, when they completed their seizure of West Beirut. Normal economic activity was brought to a standstill. Factories that had sprung up in the southern suburbs were damaged or destroyed, highways were torn up, and houses were ruined or pitted by artillery fire and rockets. Close to 40,000 homes--about one-fourth of all Beirut's dwellings--were destroyed. Eighty-five percent of all schools south of the city were damaged or destroyed. The protracted closure of Beirut's port and airport drastically affected commerce and industry." -- Federal Research Division of the U.S. Library of Congress

-------
And to the most recent campaign:

"In just two weeks of sustained Israeli attacks, the Lebanese economy has been knocked so far back it may never fully recover.

Gains from years of rebuilding have been wiped out in two weeks.

Almost all the war-torn country's bridges and 80% of its major roads have been crushed. Airports and ports, telecoms sites and TV towers, schools and hospitals have been bombed.

"The effect on the economy is going to be very, very drastic," says BLC Bank's chairman, Shadi Karam.

The damage to the country's infrastructure so far amounts to more than $1bn (£540m), economists estimate.

Yet the total cost could be much larger." Source

-------

I do have a question if you have a chance to answer. I realize the entire circumstances of hezbollah's support by Iran and throughout the region is a complex web of interests, but, as an Israeli, why do you think Hezbollah has so much support among the people of Lebanon? Is it mostly from they being the ones trying to build hospitals, schools, deliver mail and such for the people, or is it philosophical, simple ethnic affiliation or other reasons?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Hazzer
The Key to the whole middle East and it's problems is a Palistinian state,without it this and other regional conflicts will go on ad-infinitum.

Wrong answer. They've been offered their own state. They want that AND Israel, and the Israelis DEAD. How many times do they have to say that, and act on it, before people believe it. A hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, a MILLION?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Rolex


You're right, I didn't read your earlier post. I've reached the stage - not necessarily this topic only - where I scan the name and the first line because I know pretty much what they're going to say and how they're going to say it. Many don't know the difference between a discussion and an argument, or think their insults are clever, leaving a small number who actually have something interesting or informative to say.

 

And you wonder why people respond to you in a manner you do not like. It shouldn't surprise anyone. And you ask why no one gives any consideration to what you write. You gave your own answer, clearly.

[deSelys]

Captn, IMHO you belong to those posters whom replies are very rarely constructive or interesting...

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Wrong answer. They've been offered their own state.

They were offered a state that was chopped up like a jigsaw puzzel with Israeli land between the pieces.

They want that AND Israel, and the Israelis DEAD. How many times do they have to say that, and act on it, before people believe it. A hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, a MILLION?

Who is this "They"?  The majority of Palistinians would agree to a two state solution if it ment peace.