Alternative fuel

[Maverick]

The way solar cells work for household uses is to store the electricity in a battery for use by the house. Since the cells do not produce 110 volt AC current it must then be changes from 12 volt DC to 120 AC by the use of an inverter. In order to use a power hungry device like air conditioning you must have a massive solar cell array and an even more massive battery array. The amount of power for the amount of ground covered by the array is a rather poor return for a static house. Of course you get zilch at night and very little on cloudy days. They tried to make a solar reliant "community" about 70 miles NW of Phoenix. So far after about 10 years now I believe, the only ones there are a care taking staff to keep the place from falling down.

RV folks are making a go of it but only in the desert Southwest and in the wintertime when they don't have to run the airconditioner. They also have a preponderance of 12 volt systems rather than 120 volt AC ones. Example, my trailer has only 1 110 volt light in it from the manufacturer. The only 110 volt AC items are the airconditioner / heat pump, TV stereo and the microwave. Everything else is 12 volt including the propane furnace. In order to make the RV reliant on solar you must have at least four 6 volt golf cart batteries, the kind that weigh 125 lbs. each and you will still have to limit the 110 volt items like TV and computers to maintain enough power to keep the furnace running at night. Even running one or two small 15,000 BTU air conditioners for a 400 sq ft. RV is beyond what can be handled by solar.

[dmf]

Originally posted by Toad
DMF, had a friend install such a system in a diesel Benz. He loves it.

His was done in Tennessee but the system is like the one described here:

http://www.greasecar.com/

He had it all done, turnkey operation and it cost him less than $2K as I recall.

He gets his "fuel" free from a local restaurant.

You have to decide if it's worth $2k up front plus the collecting and filtering of the fuel all the time.

Thank you very much Toad:) Yes at the price of gas 2k would be less than I spend in a year on gas. And I grew up on a farm, I have no quams about filtering grease. In fact I have no problems killing the animal to make grease in the first place.

[Maverick]

DMF, You are my kinda gal!!!

[dmf]

Originally posted by rpm
Biodiesel and ethanol are the short term or bridging solution. They are viable only to the point of getting us to the next step. That step will be either hydrogen or nuke. Cold fission is the long term answer, unfortunately it does not exist yet.

Ok I may not be the smartest woman in the world, but You can have all the cold fusion you want  in your car, but stay about a light year away from me, cause when you explode, I don't want to be sucked into the black hole that is where you used to be.

[Bogie603rd]

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I read that a town in Ohio is getting all of its fuel from wastewater.  Maybe that could be a source too?

I know this sounds "odd". But my father and I both agree that the best alternative is what our bodies produce naturally each day. That's right, human waste.

Would be quite easy to locate it, get it from the local sewer sanitation department. Then, so you cant just drop in your tank and run, companies would "refine" it and add special chemicals or whatever they do to eliminate the particular stench and to add a resourceful energy to the fuel source. After that, ship the same as always and fill 'er up.

[LePaul]

I think it was Hondo that just opened up a large new solar cell manufacturing facility recently.

That technology continues to improve, as well as the surfaces and materials that can be used.  I recall seeing a Yahoo News clip where they showed a solar panel that you could fold up...for use with cell phones.

[LePaul]

Originally posted by Maverick


RV folks are making a go of it but only in the desert Southwest and in the wintertime when they don't have to run the airconditioner. They also have a preponderance of 12 volt systems rather than 120 volt AC ones. Example, my trailer has only 1 110 volt light in it from the manufacturer. The only 110 volt AC items are the airconditioner / heat pump, TV stereo and the microwave. Everything else is 12 volt including the propane furnace. In order to make the RV reliant on solar you must have at least four 6 volt golf cart batteries, the kind that weigh 125 lbs. each and you will still have to limit the 110 volt items like TV and computers to maintain enough power to keep the furnace running at night. Even running one or two small 15,000 BTU air conditioners for a 400 sq ft. RV is beyond what can be handled by solar.

Its interesting you mention the RV folks

A lot of the neat things I've read about solar and wind technology have been from the sail boat/cruiser folks.  I was always impressed with some of the vessels I worked on, they had everything set to optimize any/all available power sources.

Of course, everything they had on board, minus laptops, etc were on 12V

[dmf]

Originally posted by Maverick
DMF, You are my kinda gal!!!

[Flatbar]

What's needed is a fundamental change in the way we percieve of personal transportation.

In the future's energy situation will force these changes whether people like them or not.

Eletrical based mass transit will be an absolute necessity in all states and communities regardless of population density.

People will have to, for the most part, give up the idea of being able to control the speed and lane choice on hiways as computer controled hiways will become the most efficient use of energy. The hiway will provide the power and control for these comuters via inlayed < inbeded in the roadway > comunication lines.

The power for these changes will be fusion rather than fission, this IS the future of nuclear power. Combine that with a massive increase in hydro electric production and the future may be one where the want of energy will not be a factor in any governments foreign policy. This can come none too soon, IMO.

IMO, this fundamental change in the public's perception and it's acceptance is what the future holds for generations to come.

Those of you who think that these changes will never come have forgotten how just over 100 years ago powered flight was a fantasy. It only took 66 years or so to go from flying in a powered kite to landing on the moon.

Just some random thoughts from an old flatulent geezer.

[Maverick]

Flatbar,

If you think some of the "personal freedom" posts in the helmet thread were bad, wait until some folks see YOUR post. Stop allowing people to drive the car themselves?!?!?!?!?! Heresy!!!! Force folks to comply with the speed limit by not allowing them to control the throttle?!?!?!? Traitor!!!!!

[stantond]

The problem with an alternative fuel is directly tied to energy storage ability.  Hydrogen, which our Commander and Chief has declaired is the path to take, is present in all fossil fuels and provides all the fuel energy!  Hydrogen in petrolium is bonded in a stable form making it lightweight, portable, and easily converted to another form (heat).  

Pure hydrogen, however, is extremely dangerous.  The hydrogen has to be bonded to another material (nature uses carbon and nitrogen) to make it stable.  As to date, I don't believe there are any 'quick' conversion processes that use very little energy.

Ethanol, methanol, natural gas, petrolium oil, and other hydrocarbon fuels all share the same benefits of high energy to weight, quick conversion, and stability.  Solar cells, which someone mentioned operate just like batteries (but don't) are a new technology based on Einsteins photo electric effect.  That's where electrons are moved from light energy absorption in atoms due to a photovoltaic process.  Nuclear energy works with splitting the nucleus of the atom (hence the name) but does not have a high energy to weight (considering auxillary equipment), quick energy conversion, and some worry about it's stability.  Fusion, where atoms are fused together (hence the name) is how our sun works but has the advantage of gravity to keep the hydrogen fuel in place.

Fusion research has basically been abandonded by the US Government.  Research for high efficency electrical batteries is not a priority.  Conversion processes for stabilizing hydrogen into another compound is not a priority.  So, unless Japan, China, Europe, or some other country researches and develops these technologies we won't have them anytime soon.  

It would help if people in the US would conserve fuel, but that won't happen until gas prices hit about $6.00/gal.  So, for the near future, oil and ethanol type fuels are all we have for vehicles.  Even if fusion became operational (or many more nuclear plants were built), converting the energy into something useable to replace gas is another big problem.  

Personally, I like the idea of a high tech electric battery and solar cells.  That would lead to more options (including electric cars) and possibly eliminate some of our electricity grid requirements because buildings could make instead of only consume energy.  I would expect plenty of opposition to this however, since it's not easy to centralize, control, and tax energy produced that way.


Regards,

Malta

[lazs2]

One of the largest problems is the grid that it takes to maintain suburbs...  take the load off the grid and you will do the most good.

unlike flatbar... I think that we can have our freedom and our electricity at the same time.    Every city in kalifornia has a bus system that is mandated... if these were electric then that would take some of the burden..

As solar becomes more practical it will take the strain off the subburban grid which is the real problem.   When people are getting their electricity for virtually free... we will see more commuters plugged in... the electric cars will take the load off the refineries.   No one need give up any freedom..  

solar will get better... batteries and electric drives for cars will get better.... hybrid trucks and cars will take up some slack...

It is not the end but the beggining.  Once the world does not need so much oil the arabs can slip back into the 3rd century.

lazs

[Maverick]

Laz,

The california power grid is already strained past it's capacity to support the structure already there. If you add electric buses, won't that just make the situation worse and cost everyone more in higher electricity bills? I wonder what would happen when a brown out hits, would the bus simply stop in the middle of the street?

[lukster]

Originally posted by Maverick
Flatbar,

If you think some of the "personal freedom" posts in the helmet thread were bad, wait until some folks see YOUR post. Stop allowing people to drive the car themselves?!?!?!?!?! Heresy!!!! Force folks to comply with the speed limit by not allowing them to control the throttle?!?!?!? Traitor!!!!!

I'd wholeheartedly welcome a car I could tell where to go and then sit back and enjoy the ride. Maybe not when I was 20.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by lukster
I'd wholeheartedly welcome a car I could tell where to go and then sit back and enjoy the ride. Maybe not when I was 20.

You have had that for quite some time, it's called a taxi.........







Just kidding. I would have a hard time myself letting go of the wheel and letting "george" handle the navigation.