If you stall lots in turn fights....

[Simaril]

On the squad BBS, a member asked how to turn fight better. He was having two specific problems....opponents were always getting inside his turn circle, and he found that he was stalling way too often in the middle of the fight.

Fighting involves a lot that only come with experieince, like knowing how to shoot or how to manage your ride's envelope. There are some other factors, though, and so I'm reposting my answer here in the hope that 1) it might help someone else, and 2) guys who are better than me could add their insight (and correct my errors!)

So here it is, strictly "for what it's worth":

One thing about turning....it is SO easy to overlook the importance of the vertical. One reason guys get outturned, even in the same plane, is often that the more experienced player is nosing upward while the less experienced one tends to stay flat.

You'll find that when you nose up, you slow and thus can get inside the turn better. When you have the angle, nose down a bit and you'll slics across the plane of turn for a shot.

Also, in a turn fight you gain better with steady, constant turn pressure than you do by going really hard, then having to relax pressure to recover. That works IF you're pulling foir the kill, but other wise the loss in energy costs far outweights any advantage you gain...especially if you push near to stall or spin.

So here's what I'd work on for turning:

1) Maintain even control...first step is the tight, smooth circle. Avoid variations with tighter then looser control. Get to know how to ride the stall horn, and how much buffet you can take before losing tight control. It takes a while, but you'll get to feel for the mushiness and back off when it comes.

2) Use the vertical to maximum advantage when in turnfight, with mini-yoyos or even sustained spiral climbing fight.

3) VERY IMPORTANT...make transitional movements smooth, not sudden. Quick movements WILL cause a stall or buffet when you're near the edge.  It took me forever to get the hang of this..the natural thing is to move the stick very quickly to the place it needs to be, almost snapping it there when reversing a scissor or something. BUT that will dramtaically worsen stall/buffet and control. Instead, give the virtual airflow a chance to redirect without making unstable virtual eddies on the lift surfaces. Make smooth, steady, consistant control movements. Even if it has to be a fast stick movement, do it as a smooth movement instead of a jerk then quick stop.

4) When you feel departure from controlled flight happening, dont be afraid to back off -- even if it looks dangerous. I found this all the time when in a low speed fight, and I needed to pull out fast to avoid a tree -- you may improve your chances by LETTING GO of controls, letting some speed and airflow recover, and THEN pulling out with better flight chararcteristics established.

Simaril

[Schatzi]

Great advice there Simaril.

One thing id like to add:

If your pulling into stall buffet, your turn rate (sustained!) will actually be *worse* then if you relax a bit on stick and fly just outside buffeting.

[BugsBunny]

Its all good, but I think most people get 'outturned' not because of the way they fly the plane b ut because of the way they fight.  You have to guess/calculate where the bad guy is going and try to have your guns ppointing there at the time that he gets there.  Otherwise, a P40 would have 0 kills vs a Spit or that lame excuse of a fighter (the HURRI I )

[MOSQ]

Originally posted by Schatzi
Great advice there Simaril.

One thing id like to add:

If your pulling into stall buffet, your turn rate (sustained!) will actually be *worse* then if you relax a bit on stick and fly just outside buffeting.

Schatzi,

That's what I thought too. That's how I conducted my sustained turn testing for all the planes. I pulled until it just started to buffet then backed off, back on, back off, staying on the edge.

I posted my results and immediately WideWing posted better ones than I could obtain. It turned out the best sustained turn radius and rate occurs deep in the shake, right on the edge of causing a stall/spin.

So I had to go back and retest all over again. See this thread for more detail Mosq's sustained turn thread

And to download the results:
Mosq's Sustained Turn List

[Simaril]

That's true....for guys with control skills as good as widewing does. I find that I have to be more careful, because at least in a fight I tend to cross the line too easily if I get too close to the edge.

Once I cross into stall, the recovery costs me far more angular advantage than I gained by shaving the edge so close.

[Iceman24]

only thing I would like to add is that if your following the other AC around and around, trying to outturn the other in a sustained flat turn then you are, then you are not using your plane to the fullest, add the vertical to the fight and you'll can easily maneuver just about any AC into getting guns on the plane thats just turning tight circles, allot of people who fly zekes and hurri's think that all they have to do is flat turn until they get around on the other plane, they are wrong, add the vertical to the fight and you can get a plane like the 38 or P51 to actually outmaneuver the lighter, tighter turning plane just because the tighter turner is doing circles chasing its own tail. That's why u see allot of whining on channel 200 about , "thats BS a 38 can't outturn a zero," no it can't,  but your not looking to outturn the enemy your looking to outmaneuver them, this game IS NOT about just turning in circles and firing, its about using your planes strengths versus the enemy's weaknesses to setup a shot... generally speaking vertical maneuvers beat flat turns, and flat turns beat a split S, generally speaking that is , there are circumstances but I won't get into them... good writeup there Simaril

[Xjazz]

With spiking stick, even a litle bit spiking,  it's much harder to stay on edge.

[dhaus]

Make sure stall limiter is off.  When speeds go low, I turn off combat trim which seems to give a bit of an edge if the other pilot has it on.  I actually outturned a spit in a 205 once doing that.  I can only think the spit pilot got diverted by real life, since I can't outturn anyone in anything.

[Mace2004]

3) VERY IMPORTANT...make transitional movements smooth, not sudden. Quick movements WILL cause a stall or buffet when you're near the edge. It took me forever to get the hang of this..the natural thing is to move the stick very quickly to the place it needs to be, almost snapping it there when reversing a scissor or something. BUT that will dramtaically worsen stall/buffet and control. Instead, give the virtual airflow a chance to redirect without making unstable virtual eddies on the lift surfaces. Make smooth, steady, consistant control movements. Even if it has to be a fast stick movement, do it as a smooth movement instead of a jerk then quick stop.

Good point Simaril.  To add some more info you need to understand loading and its effect on roll rate.  When right on the edge of stall the wing is just below it's critical AOA.  So lets say you want to roll left so, keeping the g on, you slap the stick to the left.  The aileron on the right wing goes down increasing the AOA for the wing to generate lift and roll to the left...but...you're already near critical AOA and any increase causes the wingtip to stall...not the desired result.  Instead, unload the aircraft (stick forward) slap the stick to the left (don't forget to use your rudder) to the AOB you want and then immediately pull the stick back aft to load the wing up again.  Yes, if you're unloaded you can "slap" the stick to give max roll rate and you can't stall because you're near 0 AOA.  Even if you're not at your stall limit a loaded aircraft won't roll as quickly as an unloaded one and a loaded roll produces far more drag.  There is a tradeoff though...you can give up some angles unloading for the roll but the increase in roll rate will usually more than compensate for it.  If you absolutely can't give up angles then roll with rudder vice ailerons.

Mace

[Dichotomy]

I'm going to have to read that a few dozen times to understand it.. but I'm sure it will make sense some day

[SAS_KID]

heh if you don't know about this already for anyone but the gam is all about angles if you can get your nose in the right angle to hit all you gotta do is pull the trigger. Remember you have 3 dimensions to work with and that it is a game. Don't be afraid to go verticle instead of continue turning. For all you know stalling and noseing over can get you a nice shot or it can kill you. The best thing to do is learn your plane have great Sitiuational Awareness and try to get that angle for the kill. Don't bother with trying to outturn a Zeke with a P38 to prove your guru of some sort. Just go for the angle which usually comes from going in the vert. Expieriment with all 3 dimensions the worst that can happen is that you get shot down and have to re up and do it again.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Mace2004
......snip
Instead, unload the aircraft (stick forward) slap the stick to the left (don't forget to use your rudder) to the AOB you want and then immediately pull the stick back aft to load the wing up again.  ......

Mace

Thanks Mace! Great tip. Appreciate the explanation, and I'm definitely going to have to try that move!

[Schatzi]

Originally posted by MOSQ
Schatzi,

That's what I thought too. That's how I conducted my sustained turn testing for all the planes. I pulled until it just started to buffet then backed off, back on, back off, staying on the edge.

I posted my results and immediately WideWing posted better ones than I could obtain. It turned out the best sustained turn radius and rate occurs deep in the shake, right on the edge of causing a stall/spin.

So I had to go back and retest all over again. See this thread for more detail Mosq's sustained turn thread

And to download the results:
Mosq's Sustained Turn List

If i understood Widewings post correctly, he got his better turn rates at considerably higher speeds then you did. *Thats* what i meant with pulling into stall buffet too much - it slows you down to a point where your turn rate suffers.