Gospel Lite

[Shuckins]

What's going on with church music these days?  The wife and I are both actively involved in our music program...she as organist...I as bass singer in the choir.  We're both disturbed by some of the new age trends creeping into religious music.

I grew up in a small church that had a lot of country fokes in it, so I'm used to hearing a high-nasal twang during congregational singing.  Traditional hymns.  Small groups...trios...quartets...t he whole nine yards of small church music.

But even when in high school my tastes in music began to expand.  Spent three years in Acapella Choir at a small university that had an exceptional vocal program.  Performed classical, spiritual, gospel, 60s and 70s rock, etc.

So I like to think I have an open mind about new types of music and have a wide variet of tastes.

During much of our married life, the wife and I have had little opportunity to indulge our tastes for classically based religious music.  The baby-boomer fascination with "contemporary" music forms has impacted traditional church programs hard.

I-pod music...praise bands.  Aimed mainly at the youth.  Endlessly repetitive lyrics.

Gospel Lite.  A steady diet of pablum.

We joined a new church in February.  OUTSTANDING choir and music program.  Sixty voices...extremely rare in a rural area such as this.  Most of the members have college degrees and most can read music to some extent.  

We finished a musical yesterday...wonderful performance.  The writer of the musical score was our guest.  He is associated with the Gaither group (I'm no real fan of them...but that's neither here nor there).

He spent a lot of time coaching the choir to "emote."

 "You've got to let it go and stop holding it in.  It's okay to raise your hands and wave them and sway....to show the congregation that you're genuine .  You're grandmother isn't here...it's okay to do it."

My grandmother wasn't there...but she was probably watching.  She helped raise me to believe showmanship didn't necessarily honor God...and instead usually drew attention to the performer.

And boy, did he "perform."

I have kinfokes who would come up out of the grave and git me if I ever did something like that in church.  I come from a long line of toe-tappers and amen-ers.  Hand waving and swaying just aint fer me, thank ye.

The best songs in the musical were rewritten arrangements of old, classical hymns.  The worst were new age Gospel Lite songs:  Sing a verse, hit a coda, return, sing the verse again, sing the chorus, hit a coda, return, sing the chorus again, key change up and sing the chorus again, hit a coda, return and sing the chorus again, key change down and sing the chorus again...repeat the verse...start the chorus again..rinse and repeat...for the ending sing the title words pulled from the chorus up an octave and LOUD!

Pablum.

I'm concerned about how the future will pan out, in terms of these trends in worship.  The youth in much of the country really get into this...and are seldom exposed to the deeper, richer forms available.

If this sounds like a rant...it is.  Can't help it.

[Mustaine]

I assoicate "AMEN BROTHER" aloud with southern baptists, or (in a completely respectful way) black churches.

I grew up in a Lutheran (missouri synod) church, went to grade school there, then an affiliated high school.

singing along with old hymns for me always stunk. i can't hold a tune, and can't read a note of music, let alone make my voice do anything closely resembeling hitting a "note" of choice.

our church was an "old" school church. the pastor taught confirmation class, my 8th grade class was in 1987 and he celebrated his 75th birthday that year. I'd say the average age of the congreation at that time was in the late 50's average (about 1000 members then).

over time that church has changed. they had a pastor for 2 years, pastor Corcoran. GREAT guy taught my freshman HS religion class. he had been a hippie in the 60's and was a born again "Jesus freak". he was for lack fo a better way to put it, run out of the church. he would do his sermon walking around a bit instead of turning down the lights and standing in the pulpit the whole time lecturing. he would talk to you. members complained they couldn't see him, or it was too distracting, or whatever. he took another calling the next year.

at around that time too alot of the "youth" of the church (the youth group at the time was for people 16-30) were not being real active in the church.

I fell out of church around my senior year in HS. not because of losing my "faith" but because of the "stodgeyness" for lack of a better word.

over time the church has grown a ton (over 3500 members now) and gone more mainstream. the whole verse, coda, chorus, octave thing you mention is all they sing. for a while I got back into the church and actually played guitar in the "praise service" band... until one day I got a letter certified mail that I was no longer a member of the church, because records showed i had not taken communion in 2 1/2 years. (well DUH i was PLAYING songs during communion).

haven't gone back since.

but yeah the new music director (new 5 years ago +) is all into that upbeat music. personally I prefer it to the old somber chanting of some hymn that only the organist has heard maybe in the last 15 years. the way we did the music when i was in there was tasteful, just more upbeat, energetic, and was more of a celebratory sence in the church during those services. people were happy to go to church and actually praise God.

I don't know what to say overall, but I guess I am down the middle on the whole subject.

[Pooh21]

I am there to praise God and not listen to some wannabe prima donna sing 1970s and newer upbeat religious music. Gimme an old person and a pipe organ playing some 15th cent hymnal dirge and I am happy.

[Sandman]

It's all about the money.

[Maverick]

It's my belief that there are so many sects (speaking strictly Christian versions here) because there are so many people who are looking for the church experiance that makes them feel at home. Others for the church that simple reflects their identity with their God. (I use that phrase because HE is supposed to be an individuals God as well as universal) Many will look for that place, others can identify without a church setting per se, such as simply being out in nature.

What ever works for you is the right one.

[Shuckins]

It isn't really all about the money...unless one is talking about some of the televangelists.




Small churches are a world apart from high-end video production empires of the likes of Swaggert, Baker and others.

[BlueJ1]

I did a colorguard for my division sometime before Christmas. It ended with us sitting in a church service (Catholic). We were sitting there when gentlemen come around with the baskets and ask for donations. This man in maybe his late 30's walks to our pew and looks down at our uniforms then he holds out the basket thats attached to a stick. Having no money on me I cant donate. A few of my cadets give some money. The guy looks back to me and holds the basket in front of me and shakes it. He did this maybe 3 times before I shook my head. He then gave me a dirty look and hit me with the basket. He stood there for awhile and continued to stare me down. Not wanting to start a fight in the middle of a church I borrow a dollar from one of my cadet and put it in the basket. He then nods and walks away.

That was the end of me wanting to go to church. I can believe in God and stay home and be harassed by telemarketers on the phone and get the same effect.

[ChickenHawk]

I couldn't agree with you more Shuckins.  I find the current Christian music trend a little disturbing.  I kind of expect it on the west coast but if it's penetrated into the deep south, than there is little hope for us.

My daughter likes to listen to a couple Christian music stations on the radio so I can't help but hear it.  But after hearing the same line repeated about twenty times, I feel like pulling out my hair.  The same kind of music is starting to penetrate our church too.  Thankfully I haven't seen any hand waving or dancing yet.

I'll take an old fashioned hymn with some meat to it rather than this fluff music any day.

[AquaShrimp]

At my church, sure, there is a little bit of showmanship.  But its not for our own glory.  We are there to praise God.  For example, last week I was at my church in central Kentucky.  Brother Malcom went and got the snake box and wheeled it out.  Brother Luke pulled out about a 4 foot rattle-snake and began dancing.  Then he began to twirl it around his head.  What a showoff.  Just because his faith is strong doesn't mean he has rub it in our faces.  Brother Malcom then tried to 1-up Brother Luke.  He was taking the snake and putting it in one side of his shirt and pulling it out of the other.  But either God was displeased with his showing off, or his faith was weak, because the snake bit him.  Don't worry though, we put some special leaves on the snake bite, then held the bible over it and prayed.  That withdrew all the venom.  Brother Malcom was only in a coma for 3 days.

But I agree, leave that new age stuff at home.  Church should be about simple things- Man, God (and his love for him), and poisonous snakes.

[nirvana]

Well BlueJ, you DID breathe the holy air, as well as sit in the house of the holy.  Amazing that he accepted your donation from one of your fellow cadets, not even really your donation, even though i'd guess you paid him back.

Anyway, it's good you guys haven't moved to the north, I hear they have rap sermons in New York to attract the younger age groups.  I quickly bored of the stand sit kneel sit kneel stand kneel sit etc. of the local catholic church and have since been turned off to it.  My friend loves going to church.  Myself, I have a study bible, blessed by the man himself, Seagoon that I read if I so need the guidance.  You fellas are just old fashioned in a new wave church atmosphere.  The times they are a changin'.

[Tarmac]

Originally posted by Pooh21
I am there to praise God and not listen to some wannabe prima donna sing 1970s and newer upbeat religious music. Gimme an old person and a pipe organ playing some 15th cent hymnal dirge and I am happy.

Yup, that's my take on church.  I go for a sermon, not the music.  Especially not some new age crap sung by some "emoting" showman.  Contemporary Christian music sucks.

That seems to be the formula for most of these "megachurches" now... it makes me want to gag... and not go to church.

[Seagoon]

Sorry Shuckins for not noticing this thread before, although I'm almost loathe to enter into the discussion.

To answer your original question, i.e. what's going on in church music and the related question of what is going on in worship generally in the modern church requires a little background. I'm only going to go back to the 19th century, to keep the discussion shorter than book length.

Basically within Christianity there were two competing theories regarding what we should do in worship.

The first theory was that the bible should determine what we do in worship, and that if we couldn't find a command or an example that would indicate that the New Testament Church did it, we shouldn't either. This was the practice of the American denoms that had descended from the Puritans and continental Reformed - the Congregationalists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Dutch Reformed, etc. In terms of music, most of these groups initially believed only in the congregational singing of unaccompanied Psalms and Hymns, that meant no bands, no soloists, no choirs, etc. just the congregation singing to fairly simple tunes. In this worship the preaching of the word is central.

The second theory was that the church had the right to create rites and ceremonies of its own and then require the congregation to observe them. This would be the worship theory of the Lutherans, Catholics, Episcopalians, and Methodists. In terms of Music, accompanied singing of hymns, including choirs and soloists on special occasions were widely practiced. Worship in these traditions is highly symbolic and often referred to as "high church." In this worship the ceremonies and sacraments tend to be much more important than preaching.
 
Gradually, in the late 19th century and early 20th century as the authority of the bible began to decline in many denominations, and people in the first tradition became bored with simple worship, the second theory of worship - that the church could decide to add whatever it deemed appropriate - began to win out. The older "Puritan" denoms began to look more and more Episcopalian in their worship and every denom generally began importing choirs and soloists and anything that it was felt would make the worship more engaging.

Gradually the formula that the preferences of the congregation should determine the structure of the worship became the norm. The singing and the hymns reflected the singing style of the culture of their time. The assumption therefore became that the preferences of the older generation and their "good ole hymns" was good and holy and normal. No one could remember a time when they hadn't worshipped and sung like that.

Unfortunately for them, a younger generation with a different culture which found their hymns and tunes dusty and boring was growing up in the church. Matters came to a head in the 1970s and gradually congregations began to bring in music that reflected the preferences of the new culture. The pace of this accelerated in the 1980s till in many churches the reigning tradition was now to sing modern (or contemporary) praise songs. For many people brought up on the earlier tradition, these new bland and repetetive songs that reflect the easy listening pop culture of the 80s are irritating, meaningless, and irreverent. The problem though is that having nailed your flag to the mast of preference, you are inevitably bound to the idea that whatever a majority (or the leadership) in the church prefer, will be the reigning paradigm.

So, the music you were forced to endure the other day is just a reflection of the "have it your way" consumer culture. Most people think of the church as a consumer driven organization, so as Maverick essentially put it, they believe you shop around till you find the one that fits your tastes best - or you work to force the one you are in to conform to your desires.

To my mind this is all wrong-headed and will inevitably have disastrous consequences. I firmly believe that if we really are there to worship God, then His preferences as expressed in His word should determine the content of our worship. It shouldn't be my preferences or anyone else's that fix our worship "style."

Anyway, I don't know if you'll be interested, but I preached on the theory of biblical simplicity in worship and addressed some of the contemporary worship theory a while back. The audio of the sermon is here:  The Second Commandment
The PDF file is located here:
Second commandment PDF

- SEAGOON

[Mustaine]

Originally posted by Seagoon
...The second theory was that the church had the right to create rites and ceremonies of its own and then require the congregation to observe them. This would be the worship theory of the Lutherans, Catholics, Episcopalians, and Methodists. ...

I would have to disagree at least in the part of my Lutheran church.

I was taught about the reforms Martin Luther proposed, and the background of the Lutherna church, but in my understanding, the "liturgy" is not a "you will burn in heckfire if you don't follow this" in fact that way I was taught is "wherever 2 or more are gathered in My name..." a formatted service is not necessarilly needed at all.

yes there has been an liturgy in my Lutheran church, but has fell out of use basically in the past 10 years (that part agrees with what you have said about the changes since 1970)

I have seen Lutheran churches (other synods and the like) that have regimented liturgies, with the sung responses and all like a Catholic church almost (in fact the Lutheran church in MI my mother went to uses the term "The Holy Catholic Church" in their Lutheran Apostle's Creed

that I think is more along the lines of what you are speaking about, but i would not put all Lutherans at least in a group like that. just from my personal experience.

[Seagoon]

Hi Mustaine,

Originally posted by Mustaine
I would have to disagree at least in the part of my Lutheran church.

I was referring to the overall theology of worship, especially as it is contained in the confessional standards of a denomination.

Martin Luther did indeed discard many of the traditions of the Roman Catholic church, but not all, and the Lutherans never moved to a bible alone (sans traditions) position on worship as say the British and American Puritans did.

Let me give you some actual examples of this:

For instance, all Presbyterians used to subscribe to theory one. You can see this from their primary standard, the Westminster Confession of Faith (1648) which stated: "...the acceptable way of worshiping the true God is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshiped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scripture."

Whereas the Episcopalian "39 Articles" boldly stated theory two: "The Church hath power to decree Rites or Ceremonies" and "Every particular or national Church hath authority to ordain, change, and abolish, Ceremonies or Rites of the Church ordained only by man's authority, so that all things be done to edifying."

What this meant in practice was that the structure of worship in churches like the Lutheran and Episcopalian churches was largely derived from tradition (often ancient) but not necessarily the Bible. So that, for instance, the Lutherans follow the church calendar even though the observance of a church calendar with its seasons and holy days is not found in the bible.

Now most Lutheran churches and especially the more conservative Wisconsin and Missouri Synod Lutherans still adhere to what is usually called traditional worship, and only a few have moved to what is called "contemporary" worship. However, both worship styles, though they look very different in practice, are still actually expressions of theory two and depend upon the idea that men have the authority to create new ways of worshipping God.

In 1961 the mainline Presbyterians actually changed their standards to theory two as well, stating that worship "should draw its order and content not only from Scripture but also from the historical experience and resources of Christianity"

The problem is a lot of people don't like some of the current "resources of Christianity" that are being incorporated into worship. It was all fine and dandy, they felt when those resources were a handbell choir or Mrs. Burbridge singing "Up from the Grave He Arose" solo, but when its Greggy's Christian Thrash Metal Band playing up front, people get offended. The thing is, that's the preference of Greggy and his friends, and he thought Mrs. Burbridge was simply awful. Who wins in this scenario depends on whether you want Mrs. Burbridge or Greggy and the Skate Rats to stay in your church.

Personally, our church avoids the conflict by offending Greggy and Mrs. Burbridge at the same time.  

- SEAGOON

[Mustaine]

trust me I see what you are saying, and don't get me wrong I am not defending that church that kicked me out for not eating crackers and wine...


I do say it is a diffucult argument.

Personally, our church avoids the conflict by offending Greggy and Mrs. Burbridge at the same time.

is funny and somewhat logical  but as long as you don't bow to your own comments and create "rules" or "rites" saying Greggy is not allowed to be a part of the worship. (my guess is you have no intention of that, and would not allow that, but I think you see what I mean by that.)

what I'd worry about is a church that just changes things like mentioned in the first post

"You've got to let it go and stop holding it in. It's okay to raise your hands and wave them and sway....to show the congregation that you're genuine . You're grandmother isn't here...it's okay to do it."

just making the worship trendy is not what it's about. that could almost be construed into blasphemy in the effect you are only worshiping the way you think is right, might as well only believe what you want to believe about God too. saying "I won't worship that way because I don't like it" is just like saying you only do or believe what is convienent or proper in your own personal mind (pretty hypocritical IMHO) (you being used here as a generalization toward joe anyman)