Author Topic: Muslims in America vs Muslims in Europe (Read 2284 times)

bozon · « **Reply #45 on:** August 15, 2006, 11:09:02 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Suave
The problem isn't the religion, it's the backward society they live in.

I agree and not only in relation to Islam but to all religions. The real problem is vast cultural differences. A society can tolerate cultural differences, it even adds flavor. Make those differences too big and you got two seperate societies that will mix like oil and water when put in the same jar.

However, "integration" has become a bad word in many western societies. It is sometimes concieved as the majority forcing its way of life on the minority (which is correct in a way). Instead, multi-culturalism breaks society into groups who are blind to each other (aka "tolerance") till their interests conflict, or one find it difficult to survive.

lukster · « **Reply #46 on:** August 15, 2006, 11:17:36 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by bozon
I agree and not only in relation to Islam but to all religions. The real problem is vast cultural differences. A society can tolerate cultural differences, it even adds flavor. Make those differences too big and you got two seperate societies that will mix like oil and water when put in the same jar.

However, "integration" has become a bad word in many western societies. It is sometimes concieved as the majority forcing its way of life on the minority (which is correct in a way). Instead, multi-culturalism breaks society into groups who are blind to each other (aka "tolerance") till their interests conflict, or one find it difficult to survive.

I don't believe religions are intrinsically violently opposed to one another but look at what the youth are being taught in the middle east. Violent hate for jews and the west if we are to believe anything at all reported by the media. Can this have any outcome other than war?

Shaky · « **Reply #47 on:** August 15, 2006, 12:33:54 PM »

Biased source? Certainly...however I'm sure they did not fake the signs or video.

Get yer head outta yer bellybutton and look at the evidence in front of your eyes.

wooley · « **Reply #48 on:** August 15, 2006, 01:43:22 PM »

This is tricky ground.

America does not have the problem Europe has because, in general, the muslim community here has been much more successfully integrated into the mainstream of 'American' society than in Europe. I have yet to see a exclusively Pakistani or Bangladeshi (or Indian) neighborhood of the types found in UK cities like Birmingham, Bradford and Glasgow. It has nothing to do with gun ownership (or lack thereof). If someone is willing to strap on a satchel of explosives and blow themselves up, I don't think your Glock is going to be much of a deterent.

The reason for this probably lie in America's background as a nation of immigrants and its long experience of integrating newcomers. However for whatever reason, Muslim communities in Europe are not integrated. They live in their own neighborhoods and are frequently discouraged by community leaders from having contact with 'westerners'. They frequently claim to be victims of racism, but are often themselves racist beyond most European or American's belief. These closed communities are ripe ground for the crazies spreading their doctrine of violience.

However, the difficulty is we live in a free society and unless the crazies start openly inciting violence (and I admit we've been slow to crack down on this in the past), there is very little we can do. People have the right to live, practise religion, exercise free speach and peacfully protest in our society and if we were to take those freedoms away, we lose something to the crazies.

So what do you do? Force integration? Force people to be more 'British' (or German or French). That is not easily done in a free society.

Say Bradford was transplanted into Colorado. How would America deal with the problem?

By the way, for clarification, I'm a British citizen living (legally

)in the USA.

Gh0stFT · « **Reply #49 on:** August 15, 2006, 02:08:45 PM »

our moslems are smarter, more clever, they plan theyr attacks here
but attack there, because the targets are there?

lazs2 · « **Reply #50 on:** August 15, 2006, 02:27:50 PM »

suave.. your defenition of pidgenhole is accurate enough.

you claim you do not insult people but.... "your trademark peurile insolence." is the way you described my style.

You then claim that you were merely saying that I have a tendency to insult people.

I would say there was a difference but... will assume that you meant the latter by the former...

If that is the case then I will admit that I have a tendancy to insult people or at least... to have people feel insulted by me.

It is not I that is upset about being pidgenholed tho... it is you.. that is the funny thing about it... you act all upset about it and then.... proceed to do it to others... interesting.

I have never claimed to be upset by being lumped in with others. I have corrected some missconceptions about me but have never gotten as indignant as you have about it.

I have been called a christian and a biggot and a "neocon" and any of a number of things that I am not. This lumping me in with these groups does not upset me... I simply correct the accuser.

lazs

indy007 · « **Reply #51 on:** August 15, 2006, 02:48:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by wooley
Say Bradford was transplanted into Colorado. How would America deal with the problem?

We bombard their children with pop culture. The desire for children to fit in helps it along a bit while they're still in school.

I've seen the difference in person. Summer job working for my dad in HS, the business was owned by a Somali muslim family. The younger ones who received education here early on would routinely get into fights with the older ones who were only here for college. Younger ones hang up a Snap-On Calendar... it's Jihad in the warehouse.

Takes a few generations, but it works. A few flatout crazies will slip through the cracks though, it's inevitable.

Seagoon · « **Reply #52 on:** August 15, 2006, 05:48:48 PM »

Hi Laz,

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
I also agree that all fundamentalist religions are dangerous...

I see the above sentiment a lot around here, and I know it resonates in an anti-theistic society, but its ultimately no more true than saying that because Fascists and Communists have caused an immense amount of suffering, all political parties are dangerous. Would it be legitimate to lump American Libertarians together with the Khmer Rouge?

Technically speaking a "fundamentalist" religion is one that is characterized by a zealous belief in and adherence to the "fundamental" doctrinal teachings of that system. The opposite of theological fundamentalists are theological liberals. Technically speaking therefore, the Amish are a funadamentalist religious group, and yet no one I'm aware of has ever classified them as dangerous. The same could be said of plenty of Tibetan monks.

Even fundamentalists deserve to be judged on the basis of what they teach, and what the fruit of those teachings is. The problem we have is that we refuse to enter into the process of actually assessing the fundamental teachings of Islam, the early history of its spread under Mohammed, or the fruit it has produced since then. We certainly don't want to examine its truth claims, so it is simpler to pretend it is exactly the same as all other "fundamentalist" religions, which it patently isn't.

According to standard media definitions, I'm a "fundamentalist" and so are Nasrallah, Al Sadr, Osama, and Ahmadinejad. Am I equally dangerous? If so, how?

- SEAGOON

B@tfinkV · « **Reply #53 on:** August 15, 2006, 06:31:02 PM »

the biggest problem is trying to pretend all 'people' are the same, theres no difference with any of us. this i the madly politicaly correct first world that we call 'peace'

of course theres a difference, like a tiger to a leopard. geez, were all part of the human race but why should we all pretend that we are one big family, and why whould the 'white first world' of 80 years ago suddenly be the ones who call 'truce' and expect the rest of humanity to smoke some bud and calm down a bit?

and yes lazs, im afraid you might have me on that one. like all things in life it might take longer for those closer to the source to realise. doesnt invalidate any of the non biased reasons why no guns is a good plan, but im swining further to the nanny state mocking, 'i like to blow watermelon up' camp.

Trikky · « **Reply #54 on:** August 15, 2006, 06:59:02 PM »

Cod Batfink, are you some kind of Chav?

I went to a Muslim wedding once. Had a special section for infidels and a special infidel refreshment section, namely a bar. More bling and Limo’s than a film premier, tripped out bollywood music and exotic women dancing, incense, henna, no beheadings or precision munitions, it was great.

Cant……we……all…………just………ah **** it.

B@tfinkV · « **Reply #55 on:** August 15, 2006, 07:56:23 PM »

dont be foolish, a chav would never have even given thought to the origins of man and possibilities of it outcomes from present circumstances.

nothing i have said is inccorect, yes I 'can just get along', but seems no matter what i behave like, people keep goin and screwing the whole world up again.

any insulting text i have written is intended and aimed at those who live in another country and then decide to attack it in a cowardly way.

i have no predudice to the people of all races i meet and know depending on anything other than if they want to kill me and my mother.

wake up. you're well off in live which forces a beautifull indulgent ignorance about any thing other than 'just getting along'?

lazs2 · « **Reply #56 on:** August 16, 2006, 02:55:19 PM »

seagoon... perhaps I should have said that all fundamentalist religions are dangerous TO ME... And even then... only if they have power over me.

What I mean is that every one that I have seen has rules that I may or may not want to live by... rules that are only a problem if they have power over me or the government that has power over me.

For instance... if a religion believes that there should be no sex between any man and woman not married....

That is fine and they are free to believe that so far as I am concerened. The problem comes when they have the power of law. When my freedom is in jepordy for something that I feel is none of the states business.

I imagine gays would have some complaints too..

Not all fundamentalists are equally dangerous to me of course... the muslim ones are the heads and shoulders above all the others leaders.

You see this in the moral laws being made in Iran for example.

lazs

lukster · « **Reply #57 on:** August 16, 2006, 03:43:31 PM »

I think you're missing an important point lazs. While some fundamentalist religions do believe as you mentioned that is is wrong for a man and woman to have sex outside of marriage, no religion in America has any physical power over you to prevent you from doing so. The only "danger" is that you might be expelled from that religion. Of course God reserves for himself the right to judge all no matter their religion or lack thereof.

lazs2 · « **Reply #58 on:** August 17, 2006, 08:47:59 AM »

I have no problem with being judged by god for my morality that hurts no one but myself... my problem is when man does it.

Not all christian religions are benighn but... they are populated by a much better educated and less fundamentalist people as a whole...

There can be some examples of dangerous to me religions... take the mormons... their beliefes are not dangerous as such but.... they can control entire cities or businesses and cause a lot of trouble for those who will not convert.

fortunately... we live in a large and diverse country where we can escape any fundamentalist religion with little effort but... the gist of my arguement is that I feal any religion getting too much power.

Organized religion is just another form of enforced socialism to me. I feel fortunate that very few of em have any real power over me.

lazs

Edbert1 · « **Reply #59 on:** August 17, 2006, 12:39:16 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Suave
The problem isn't the religion, it's the backward society they live in.

Which society are you calling backwards, Europe or America (the subject of the thread)? Or did you mean Arab society is backwards? If the latter I'd agree completely, but even if we agree upon that it does not explain why Muslims in forwards societies are commiting heinous acts. In fact the very recent group in the arrested in the UK last week were all (if not all nearly all) born in Europe in addition to living in Europe. I know folks from Pakistan and Iran who would be very quick to point out that they are not Arabs. Same is true for those in the Sudan and Indonesia or the Phillipines, all countries currently plagued with the violence of Islam. So we cannot even say that terrorism is solely the result of the backwards societies of the Middle East.

So what we have left is the only common denominator...Islam itself. When the Islamic population of any country reaches critical mass, violence and terrorism occur, this cannot be refuted. Anyone who tries to deny that Islam itself is the culprit is one of two things in my opinion:

1.) Blind, to the point where I would question their ability to tell me if it is day or night outside
2.) Acting as rational members of civilized society while aiding and abetting the attempts of the Jihadis to destroy civilization. I do not claim to know if this is an active goal of theirs or they have been duped, I'm sure there are cases of both.