Author Topic: republicans and the environment  (Read 894 times)

Offline Dowding

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republicans and the environment
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2001, 03:30:00 PM »
I agree Karnak.

Environmental protectionism and conservation involves using technology to replace or improve as many environmentally damaging processes as possible.

It does not mean returning to the ice age (now there's irony for you).
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline bloom25

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republicans and the environment
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2001, 04:25:00 PM »
First of all, I too am a college student.  I'll be graduating in less than a year with a degree in Electrical Engineering.  As you can imagine I have a good deal of knowledge on this subject by now.

Here's what I think should be done:

1.  Electric vehicles are not an ideal solution at all.  The efficiency of current lead-acid batteries is terrible.  They have improved little since electric vehicles were first tried - in the 1900 - 1910 period.  They are FAR too heavy and current charging/current rectification systems waste a lot of energy as well.

2.  In the past 10 years or so advances have been made in permanent magnets and the efficiency of steam turbine power plants as whole.  (This would include gas/coal/oil/nuclear, etc.)  Natural gas plants in particular are relatively efficient.  Building them right now is not a bad idea.

3.  Much research is being done (and more money should be allocated to do) work in the areas of fuel cell and fusion power.  These methods of energy conversion rely mainly on hydrogen, which can easily be extracted from water.  Current fuel cells are not very efficient and are very heavy, but their only exhaust product is pure water.  Given some time (within the lifespan of the above gas plants) they should be much more efficient and lighter/smaller.  If you pair fuel cells up with electric motors (permanent magnet advances, mentioned above, give you more powerful motors with less weight), you have a nearly perfect solution.
 Fusion power is the next logical step in powerplants.  Some research has been done in this area in the UK, but much more needs to be done to make this a practical option.  Fusion (not to be confused with fission) is when you force hydrogen to combine into helium, generating enormous amounts of energy.  (Think H-bomb.)  Once again, the fuel is easily created.

4.  Wind and solar power are currently not really viable options.  Too little power is generated for the costs of the materials used to contruct them.  Sure, wind and solar energy are free, but the energy used to constuct the power plant is not.  Current methods for collecting solar energy require HUGE amounts of land space for mirrors or solar cells.  In addtion these plants can only be placed in remote locations (like a desert) where it is rarely cloudy.  The cost of servicing and maintaining these plants is also very high.  (Mirrors/solar cells don't clean the dust of themselves.)  You must also consider that because location is everything, new roads and power lines must be made to service the plant.  Wind power suffers from similar limitations.  It is expensive and requires a lot of land.  The wind is also not present all the time, so if large portions of our nation's energy came from wind it could be a disaster if there is no wind on a particular day.

Hydro power also suffers if there is a drought (like now in the Pacific Northwest).  It is a "clean" source of energy as far as air polution, but there are drawbacks in that large areas of land are swallowed up to create reservoirs.  Fish are also affected.  Perhaps the worst thing is the potential for disaster should a major dam fail.  (These dams don't have infinite lifespan you know.   )  Have any of you heard of China's 3 Gorges Dam?  Do you have any idea how many lives would be lost if this thing were to burst.  (It is built across an active fault line you know.  Large dams have been known to cause earthquakes as well.   )  Several million lives would be lost if this dam were to ever fail, in addition the loss of property would be a catostrophic blow to the nation's economy.

Well, I've got work to do, but I may write more later.




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republicans and the environment
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2001, 05:41:00 PM »
Wow, sounds like right wing conservatives have discovered acid.  Kind of like listening to drug-addled tree-huggers in reverse.  Far out.

Mk

Offline ispar

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republicans and the environment
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2001, 06:05:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by mrfish:
yes that's true, but first we will have to get people like 1776 to say it right: nuke-you-ler wrong - new-kleer good

Hehe... mrfish, you listen to Rewind?

(NPR news spoof show, is recorded at KUOW Seattle)

Offline 1776

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republicans and the environment
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2001, 12:24:00 AM »
Why is it that California now has a shortage of electricity??

Could it be extreme environmental policies??

Or is it the "greedy corporations"???

I would like to hear only from the people who live in California.
 

Offline MrBill

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« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2001, 01:55:00 AM »
Would a native who lived there 50 odd years, saw the "handwriting on the wall", and bailed count?
I believe that the average Californian will just whine about it being the governments fault, or use the refrain "but no one told me".
It's all BS!  
In 1960 gas was selling in the U.S.of A. for around 25 cents a gallon and "price wars" often dropped it much lower. (can you name any other commodity that has risen 800% in the past 40 years?)  The easy solution would have been to put a $2.00 a gallon tax on gas, (This would have still made U.S. gas the cheapest in the world) and earmark the money for energy research and mass transit.  The results, here 40 years later, would have been a lot less cars to deal with and a culture NOT intoxicated by the automobile.  We would still have and use cars, but in a more responsible manner.  
This option is still available ... but there is no politician alive who is going to attempt to tell joe 6 pack he has to choose between his 6 MPG big wheels and beer  
Three years ago (I was still working in the silly con valley) I proposed this to a group of friends at a convention.  To a man they all agreed that the economy would collapse if gas went up a dollar a gallon. <sic> Well 18 months later gas prices in the bay area had gone up a dollar a gallon and ... darn the economy was doing just fine!  Well here it is 18 months later and the forecast is that prices will top $3.00 this summer, (U.S. Gas will still be the cheapest in the world) anyone want to bet if the economy will collapse  
Sure there are people that will suffer a temporary setback. This requires a change of lifestyle for most of us ... but in the end, the beat goes on, and we will all be better off in the long run, as will our children and our grandchildren. (gunna be tough to make that 6 block walk or ride the bus to school)
Hard choices and tough love ... let the whining begin  

PS and read Cadillac Desert, then do some research and see if there is really a painless solution, good luck.
PPS in the 50's I had to walk 6 miles to school ...
in the snow ...
uphill ...
both ways.  

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[This message has been edited by MrBill (edited 05-24-2001).]
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MrSiD

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republicans and the environment
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2001, 02:49:00 AM »
You are all full of toejam!

But hey, that's not a bad thing.
If we collect all that toejam in a big tank, it will produce methane which can be burned and transformed into electricity.

Just think what kind of an amount of toejam is created in an average city daily..

Properly used we could generate 50% of it's energy use from that alone.

They are testing this at farms at the moment and the results are very good.

Now, if we could generate electricity out of roadkill on these BB's.. We'd never need another nuclear powerplant again.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2001, 11:47:00 AM »
1776,

Environmentalism actually has little or nothing to do with our power shortage.

The California power shortage stems from two places, so far as I can tell:

1) NIMBYs.  These people, while sometimes motivated by enviornmental concerns, are nearly always motivated by what the proposed power plant will do to their property values.  It isn't always people either, a major tech company that has its campus near where the city of San Jose has been trying to build a power plant is fighting it tooth and nail because it will detract from the working atmosphere that they want on their campus.

2) The power companies, PG&E up here in N.California and Edison Bell (I think)in S.California declined to build new power plants and instead decided that they would push for this quasi deregulation (they proposed it) we have and buy cheap power from out of state providers (power was cheap at the time).  Because they assumed that power would remain cheap, they did not wish to build new, expensive power plants and were more than happy to divest themselves of the power plants that they had (part of the idiotic-quasi-deregulation).

Thus we in California find ourselves where we are.

BTW, transparent conservation efforts staved this problem off for quite a while.  We'd have hit it years ago with the energy efficiency measures that have peen developed.

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Offline DocFalconer1

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republicans and the environment
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2001, 03:51:00 PM »
HALLELUJAH!!!!

Dowding, i thought i was the only conservative college student in the world.  It's good to see another one.

I agree completely--we need nuclear plants.

And global warming is NONEXISTANT!!
Heating and cooling is a natural process--it moves in cycles, just like the economy.

Offline DocFalconer1

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republicans and the environment
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2001, 03:54:00 PM »
er....not Dowding....Zigrat...dowding=lib

Anyway, nice to see another conservative college student, zig.