Author Topic: good gun laws and bad ones....  (Read 1452 times)

Offline lazs2

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good gun laws and bad ones....
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2006, 02:33:47 PM »
sixpense....  what is an "illegal handgun"?

sandie is of course on the right track... wether you ban firearms or not... if there is no penalty it is just a jesture.

take england.  I could get a gun their in a day or two if I wanted... it is not that I can't get one that stops me but the penalty.

Make the penalty for using one in a criminal manner severe enough and you can leave em laying around at bars.

make it a death penalty and you will never have a repeat offender.

lazs

Offline Charon

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« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2006, 03:54:01 PM »
I might sound like a raving soicalist with this one, but I could actually see mandatory firearm education and the registration of a gun owner...

Let me explain.

I believe in a "well regulated" public in the sense that gun owners should have a basic understanding of firearm safety. In the past, that wasn't much of an issue because more people were raised with firearms, or were drafted and received military training, etc. I have never been on a military range where I felt particularly unsafe (with the exception from a "short" 203 round one time). However, I have been on several civilian ranges where it was obvious that a firearm owner or two had relied solely on Hollywood for their education. Barrels casually waving around with fingers on triggers, little attention to hands off during cease fire, rounds down range during cease fire, holes in places that indicated too many accidental discharges, etc. In some cases there was a range officer to take care of things, in others not. Most shooters, if not all, have had similar experiences.

So, I don't have a major problem with licensing the gun owner after passing required, reasonable and appropriate safety courses, and revoking that license for irresponsible behavior. A responsibility goes with the right type of thing. Registering the owner is different IMO from registering firearms because:

1. Let's say America is under a police state rule. As a registered gun owner you turn in that rusty old .22 to the collection point like any good citizen would. They do a surprise inspection a few weeks later and find nothing in your house "I understand the need officer, thanks for being so careful with my belongings during the search." :) Meanwhile, my FNFAL and 3000 rounds of good South African 7.62 are buried in a sealed container on some remote property.

2. It's not like that anti-gun neighbor of yours, who fully supports the current regime, wouldn't drop the dime to the Alphabet Ninjas and mention that he once saw you carry a gun case into your house a few years back. Registration or not, people know your business all too well. Remember, the Gestapo did very little original case work (totally lacked the manpower for that), they just sifted through the leads provided by the good citizens of Germany for those that were the most interesting.

HOWEVER... I would only approve of this were our 2nd Amendment rights far more clarified in the modern era than they are now. As it stands, anything that would give the anti's more leverage without guarantees in return is not worth the effort, and will only be misused and abused.

[edit: Of course, most Americans would already have received this firearm education while in High School, as a standard elective like driver's ed and with federally funded Civilian Marksmanship Program after school shooting competition :)]

Felons -- if violence was involved, especially with firearms, I see no real need to give them a right they threw away when the committed the crime. Especially, if there are "anger management" issues at work, REAL domestic violence, etc. Of course, in a sane world the prisons would not be crowded with nonviolent offenders, there would be no useless and misguided war on drugs, and true sociopaths would be locked up for the full term of real sentences. It probably would be much less of an issue.

Automatic Weapons -- I would like to see them more available. However, I wouldn't necessarily do away with having a rigid background check requirement and perhaps the current tax structure enhanced to make up somewhat for lower prices due to greater availability. I realistically do believe that a fully automatic assault weapon is more deadly than a semi automatic rifle, and should be harder for a potential nut job to purchase for his grand, public exit. Still, they should be easier to acquire than they are today for the average, law abiding shooter and collector.

The Founding Fathers did prohibit ordinance, and I feel that these start to move into that catagory, clearly beyond any semi automatic weapon regardless of magazine capacity. Nor is automatic fire a requirement, initially, for armed resistance. Still, wothy of a reasonded discussion since I certainly would like to be able to afford, own and shoot an MG42 or a PPSH 41 :)

Charon
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 05:06:03 PM by Charon »

Offline Angus

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« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2006, 03:58:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Well, Chuck Manson is still in jail, so no.  

Also, I feel (as I have mentioned at the top of the thread) that once someone serves their time, they should be given the benefit of the doubt.  If you continue to treat people like criminals, then they will remain criminals.


Benefit of the doubt after release. In my opinion it matters if it was a tax issue or armed robbery.
But then there are "clean" ones like O.J.Simpson.

And Charon:
"I might sound like a raving soicalist with this one, but I could actually see mandatory firearm education and the registration of a gun owner...

Let me explain.

I believe in a "well regulated" public in the sense that gun owners should have a basic understanding of firearm safety. In the past, that wan't much of an issue because more people were raised with firearms, or were drafted and received military training, etc. I have never been on a military range where I felt particularly unsafe (with the exception from a "short" 203 round one time). However, I have been on several civilian ranges where it was obvious that a firearm owner or two had relied solely on Hollywood for their education. Barrels casually waving around with fingers on triggers, little attention to hands off during cease fire, rounds down range during cease fire, holes in places that indicated too many accidental discharges, etc. In some cases there was a range officer to take care of things, in others not. Most shooters, if not all, have had similar experiences."

Yeppers :aok
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2006, 04:08:14 PM »
Lazs, what need do you or I have of a fully automatic weapon?  I understand the "principle" but give me my bolt actions and a couple of semi-auto M1's and I'll be quite happy, even if the other guys have full autos.  I've fired a full auto AK-47 with a 75 round drum magazine.  Emptied that sucker in just under 8 seconds.  I could certainly hit the broad side of a barn with it.  The ENTIRE broad side of the barn.  I know how to keep my head down until Mr. Spray and Pray is out of ammo, thank you.  I'd rather do without having full auto guns in civilian hands.  The next person who tries to defend having one for deer hunting, I think maybe I'll want to shoot HIM.  

I too have a problem with sending people to jail, letting them out and saying they've paid their debt, and then not returning their freedoms.  That should be changed, but then so should much about our criminal justice system.  

I have no problem with requiring training and licensing, just like I have no problem with requiring people to take Drivers Ed before getting a drivers license.  Once you pass a basic course though, and get your license, you should not be bothered about buying guns afterward.  You should not have to tell the govt. how many you have or what they are or anything else.  If you must allow civilians to own military grade weapons, fine.  But require those to be registered to their owners so we can keep track of them.  

Heck, I even think we should do something like what Switzerland does, and not only require training but encourage at least a minimum amount of military service, and require those so trained to keep and maintain their weapon at home in case they are ever needed.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2006, 04:09:36 PM »
A note on the gun registration.  You brought up the Nazis first, so I don't get a godwin zap here.  :D  You mentioned that the Gestapo relied on german informers.  To a certain extent, that's true.  

But first, they went after the registered owners.  Rather than simply take their guns, those folks were the first to be taken to the camps.  Much easier to to this than to simply assume that you got all of their guns.  In the eyes of a government, the folks who OWNED guns are the most likely to still have some hidden somewhere.

That miniature armory you mention that's buried on another property?  How useful is that when you're locked up in a detention?

Just a thought...
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2006, 04:10:55 PM »
StarofAfrica, you're right, fully automatic IS silly.

I prefer three-round bursts.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline straffo

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« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2006, 04:14:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
A note on the gun registration. You brought up the Nazis first, so I don't get a godwin zap here.  You mentioned that the Gestapo relied on german informers. To a certain extent, that's true.

But first, they went after the registered owners.  Rather than simply take their guns, those folks were the first to be taken to the camps.  Much easier to to this than to simply assume that you got all of their guns.  In the eyes of a government, the folks who OWNED guns are the most likely to still have some hidden somewhere.


How does it support your point of view ?
Prooving something wrong doesnt imply the alternative is right

removed a bit to much of the original post.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 04:17:02 PM by straffo »

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2006, 04:34:33 PM »
In black and white situations straffo, it does.


Every single time that gun registration has been used, it was later used as a tool to take away guns by force (or by forced coercion) from the owner.
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Offline Charon

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« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2006, 04:35:06 PM »
Quote
A note on the gun registration. You brought up the Nazis first, so I don't get a godwin zap here.  You mentioned that the Gestapo relied on german informers. To a certain extent, that's true.

But first, they went after the registered owners. Rather than simply take their guns, those folks were the first to be taken to the camps. Much easier to to this than to simply assume that you got all of their guns. In the eyes of a government, the folks who OWNED guns are the most likely to still have some hidden somewhere.

That miniature armory you mention that's buried on another property? How useful is that when you're locked up in a detention?

Just a thought...


I would like to see the reference on that. My understanding is that they collected "illegal" arms which were also registered (mainly handguns) and prevented new purchases. The primary focus of confiscation was on the Jews, and they were the primary group sent away to the camps (if found in possession at the time -- mainly during the Crystal Night period). Anyone else subsquently caught with an illegal arm could go to a camp but... that would be the case regardless of registration. The people sent to the camps en mass at the earlier dates were activist SDP members, anarchists, homosexuals and communists and later Jews and Gypsies etc. Gun ownership was a secondary consideration to their political and racial foundations.

Also, it's kind of hard to see the practicailty of locking up 44 million US gun owners or roughly 1/4 of the population, on some general whim.


[BTW, I don't think it's in the spirit of Goodwin to suggest that should such a day come, likely as not, libertarians and others who respect individual rights will have more to fear from their neighbors, than from the Govt. Ninjas or Govt. lists. Basic group dynamics, belong vs outcast, safety vs rights, order vs the individual. You can see it on this board, and it crosses both libural and Konservtive political spectrums. Frankly, might make rebellion kind of pointless in that scenario.]

Charon
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 04:46:26 PM by Charon »

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2006, 05:06:52 PM »
Quote
Also, it's kind of hard to see the practicailty of locking up 44 million US gun owners or roughly 1/4 of the population, on some general whim.


Wasnt all that hard to lock up nearly 300,000 Japanese Americans in the 1940s on not much more than a whim.  Spin something enough so that people fear it enough, and you can do anything.  Ever watched any of the McCarthy hearings?  Yeah.  Get a bad enough incident and a charismatic leader for the anti-gun folks, convince enough people in the govt., and you could lock up 44 million people, especially if you didnt care too much for their comfort.

Offline Charon

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« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2006, 05:13:32 PM »
Star,

44 million vs. 300,000.

1/4 of the population.

One out of every 4 people.

Entire states in the South and West would lose the majority of their populations.

Not even remotely practical at any level.

Especially since it's the 1/4 of the population that is actually armed :)

Charon
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 05:16:14 PM by Charon »

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2006, 05:45:37 PM »
That's why you don't do everything at once.

You gradually take weapons away from law abiding folks.  A rifle here, a pistol there, finally you're left with a core group of folks that's a lot smaller than the original 44 million.  THOSE, you jail.

See "How to boil a frog" for more on this process.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Charon

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« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2006, 05:51:38 PM »
Just to clarify

1. Owner licensing ONLY if the 2nd Amendment is solidly and formally clarified in the modern era to the same level it was understood when the Bill of Rights was developed. Right now, today, I do not support any additional regulation of firearms. Licensing based ONLY upon reasonable education requirements. NO gun registration.

2. Licensed owners without registering weapons is far less threatening to individual rights than weapon registration because it is logistically impractical to deal with 44 million gun owners as a class of citizen. You just can't lock up that many people on a whim, and you don't know exactly what each possesses.

3. You can, however, relatively easily drive around, knock on doors, confiscate registered weapons, put them in a truck and say have a nice day -- especially if you only do it one class of weapon at a time. Start with semi automatic rifles, move up to handguns, then scoped bolt action rifles. Let the hunters have black powder and the collectors have deactivated weapons. Gun owners are a self-interested lot, particularly the deer hunter and trap shooter crowd, and as long as they believe "you don't want MY guns" they will often go along, to some extent, with laws that take away others.  By the time you go for their guns they are a much smaller community, and in many cases may be fully happy with a black powder deer rifle or double barreled shotgun.

After this confiscation, formerly legal gun owners would have to work through criminal channels to possess a banned firearm, and face stiff criminal penalties if caught. Since most such individuals are not of a criminal mindset to begin with, well, aside from some sour grapes you readily remove the empowerment of the population in relation to the government. Frog in water kind of thing.

4. The worst case scenario would be a combination of licensed gun owners and registered firearms.


Charon
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 06:11:41 PM by Charon »

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2006, 05:55:23 PM »
When the second ammendment was written, it didn't have registration in any form in it's mind.



Plus in those days, "Well Regulated" meant "Well Practiced."  So I think that every single person who wishes it so can go through goverment target shooting, and as their marksmanship gets better they get bigger tax cuts.
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Offline Charon

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« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2006, 05:57:45 PM »
I don't disagree with you Chair, in fact my post mirrors yours and was written at the same time.

The only regulation I would move with would be relative to firearm education, and only if the 2nd was reestablised on far more firm ground than it is today. I'm not a pure libertarian, which borders on anarchy. I believe that responsibilities go with rights, and gun ownership carries with it some heavy responsibilities. For whatever reason, there are people who fail at the responsibilty end where safety is concerend. What is the recourse for those?


Charon
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 06:16:00 PM by Charon »