Author Topic: The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss  (Read 2124 times)

Offline Shifty

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2006, 03:10:29 PM »
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Originally posted by Tilt



well the question was who won the BoB


Britain:aok

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Offline Angus

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2006, 03:18:13 PM »
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Originally posted by Tilt
BoB was won by the RAF. The LW did not gain significant airsuperiority over SE England.

Its generally accepted that Operation Sea Lion (German invasion via cross channel flotilla) would have been smashed by the British Navy of the time in any event.

This was the German navies opinion at the time............

In 40 the British Navy was purportedly the biggest in the World.................

Sea Lion never happened. Was that because BoB was an RAF victory? Was that because the German Navy knew that a British fleet many times its size would crush it? Both?


well the question was who won the BoB.................... not who caused the cancelation of sealion


Tilt, bear in mind the distances and the speed of events.
In the BoB it was summertime. Long daylight, and often good weather. Easy time for RN Destroyers to kill barges by the hundreds if they have the peace to do so.
The invasion would have commenced at night and contined over the daytime. For that it was necessary to keep the RN at bay on the bottom, or at least just busy defending themselves.
The RN was well scratched from Dunquerque, and busy all over the world so I'd think it's rather safe to assume that IF the Germans had launched an amphibious assault, they'd have had their hands full in the interception department.
Well, thanks to the RAF as well as other, - the British, - it never came as far as that.

BTW, a good example is 1941, when the German battleships went along the channel. ALONG the channel. The only scars they got were from aircraft I belive. Good to bear in mind to think of how fast this all could have happened.

For the Germans landing it would not as well have been a comforting thought to know that the enemy would have HUNDREDS of aircraft to strafe them (.303's do well against human flesh). Compare with D-Day when the Germans only mounted some guy called Priller and his Wingman on the beach landings!!!

Maybe just me though :eek:
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2006, 03:29:51 PM »
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Originally posted by SteffK
I can agree that they had an impact on the outcome due to thier presence, but to say they actually won is complete RolloX!!!

How the Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss



This is a good book on BoB, "The Most Dangerous Enemy: A History of the Battle of Britain.  It explains how it was possible that "so few" were able to win the Battle of Britain.  


If the Royal Navy was the reason...hehe...I guess they forget that they had to abandoned the Dover naval base and only run convoys through the Channel at night.


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Offline Badboy

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Re: The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2006, 03:38:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteffK
I can agree that they had an impact on the outcome due to thier presence, but to say they actually won is complete RolloX!!!

A couple of points are worth making here regarding Thomas Harding's article. Firstly, it contains no new information. Even the military historians quoted are only re-iterating views held at the time and expressed, and published, on numerous occasions since. Operation sea lion was always in serious doubt, not only from the actions of the RAF and the Royal Navy, but from the elements. Even the Spanish failed to cross the treacherous waters of the channel unopposed in extremely sea worthy ships, the idea that the Germans could have succeed in barges, against strong opposition, has never been taken seriously, not even by the Germans.

However, even more import is that the logic of the arguments used in the article are flawed in a number of important ways, apparently for little other purpose than sensationalism. What are the flaws?

Firstly, you can't claim that a battle was won by non participants, just because they could have won if they had been called upon to do so. No doubt, the Royal Navy would have done us proud had they been required to break up an invasion, but the simple fact remains that they were not. Why not? Simply because they were not needed, the fighting was carried out by the RAF, and the battle was won before Royal Navy intervention was necessary. Nobody doubts they could have won it, clearly some believe they should have won, but they didn't. The RAF did.

Secondly, to agree on who won the Battle of Britain, one needs to be clear about the victory conditions. It has always been accepted that the Germans wanted to invade, and the Battle would be decided by the event and success of an invasion. Even that is in doubt, since some believe the invasion itself was an expensive bluff, intended to bring Churchill to peace negotiations so that Hitler would be free to invade Russia. However, if we accept that the invasion threat was genuine, there were two prerequisites, the first was air superiority, and the second was keeping the British fleet out of the channel. The Germans believed that if they could achieve air superiority, they could keep the Royal Navy out of the channel by the use of mines and dive bombing. Could they have done so? We will never know for sure, but it is true that shipping losses in the channel were so heavy that most merchant ships were taking the long way around, and only risking the channel in daylight with RAF escorts.

Even so, the Germans only had a chance if they could maintain air superiority. Also, the Germans knew the value of close air support, and even if they could cross the channel, they would not contemplate an invasion without it.

So everything rested on achieving air superiority. The important thing here is not if that were true, but that is what the Germans believed at the time. So Goring promised to achieve air superiority in time for the invasion to take place before the weather made a channel crossing impossible. So, in reality, victory did not depend on the event and success of an invasion at all, it depended on the Luftwaffe bringing the RAF to battle and depleting it to the point that it no longer presented a threat. This was the perception of the important players at the time, everything that Goring and Park did supports the idea that both sides believed that Victory or defeat rested entirely on air superiority, a battle that could only be fought and won in the air. That's where the battle took place, and the RAF won by virtue of the fact that they prevented the Luftwaffe from achieving air superiority and the resulting cancellation of the invasion. The indefinite postponement of operation Sea Lion marked the victory. The battle was over and the RAF had won it.

What the Royal Navy coulda, woulda, or shoulda done if something that never happened (an invasion) had happened, is a matter of pointless speculation and conjecture.

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« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 03:42:57 PM by Badboy »
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Offline dmf

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2006, 05:07:08 PM »
Doesn't matter who won the battle of Britian, the United States won the war. Might be the last one we won, but to date it was the last "offical" war anyway.

Offline Trikky

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2006, 05:28:34 PM »
Yeah dmf doesnt matter at all, just put bigger fuel tanks on B17's and P47's for the New York / Berlin flights.

Offline MiloMorai

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2006, 05:39:41 PM »
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Apparently these 'historians' never heeded the lessons of Midway and when the Prince of Wales and Repulse were sunk.  The RN would have had to sail into the channel to sink the invasion fleet. Right within range of the Luftwaffe bombers and Stukas. Even with RAF air cover it would have been a massacre. The RAF in the Battle of Britain were unable to defend their own airfields but at least you can fill craters. When a ship is sunk it's sunk.

If the RAF was defeated there would have been nothing to stop the Luftwaffe from sinking the RN's capital fleet in the channel.

What is true is that Hitler feared the RN. What he didn't realise was that day of the capital ship was over and airpower would decide naval battle from now on.
How good was the LW at night bombing? The invasion force would be at sea from 12 to 24 hours. Could the LW have stopped the 50+ RN destoyers from making a banzai charge at 30+kts through the invasion fleet?

Would the RN have lost some ships? Yes, but most of the low freeboard barges would be fish housing on the seabed of the Channel with a plentiful supply of food at hand.

Worth reading, http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm

Offline Edbert1

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2006, 05:50:36 PM »
Guys, much of the speculation in this thread is moot. Hitler did not have the means to land a force substantial enough to establish even a bridgehead much less supply them for a campaign of any length. His plan was to make England sue for peace, when they didn't he got desparate and invaded Russia, which was the end of the 3rd Reich.


DMF....:rofl

Offline Kurt

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2006, 11:43:44 PM »
Wow, the troll to end all trolls.

The reason british airpower was able to win the battle was that certain rather smart folks in the early days pointed out that in the face of an air attack, the channel might just as well dry up.  (actual words, Hugh Dowding I believe)

Britain relyed on that water in the past, that was why the navy was strong.  But 30 miles of water to a german bomber was just a 10 minute wet spot.  The RAF won that fight plain and simple.

What was the RN going to do about those bombers?  Complain loudly?
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Offline rpm

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2006, 11:52:23 PM »
I thought the Eagle Squadron was the reason the RAF won.
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Offline Nilsen

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2006, 01:22:59 AM »
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Originally posted by dmf
Doesn't matter who won the battle of Britian, the United States won the war. Might be the last one we won, but to date it was the last "offical" war anyway.


Ehm.. The allies won ;)

Offline Furball

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2006, 02:11:02 AM »
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
The Luftwaffes swich to bombing cities instead of the airfealds probably did far more to loose it for them then anything


So could you argue that Bomber Command won the Battle of Britain by bombing Berlin and provoking Hitler into a frothy mouthed rage screaming "raize their cities to the ground!"?
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Offline Furball

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2006, 02:12:42 AM »
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
How good was the LW at night bombing? The invasion force would be at sea from 12 to 24 hours. Could the LW have stopped the 50+ RN destoyers from making a banzai charge at 30+kts through the invasion fleet?

Would the RN have lost some ships? Yes, but most of the low freeboard barges would be fish housing on the seabed of the Channel with a plentiful supply of food at hand.

Worth reading, http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm


depends where they are going from, the Channel isnt very far across (21 miles at closest point).

can get a ferry dover/calais, some do it in about an hour.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 02:15:40 AM by Furball »
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Offline Furball

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2006, 02:13:34 AM »
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Originally posted by dmf
Doesn't matter who won the battle of Britian, the United States won the war. Might be the last one we won, but to date it was the last "offical" war anyway.


yeah, dont forget WWI, you won that too!
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Offline Sindon

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2006, 02:34:50 AM »
Pearl Harbour wasn't a documentary rpm :p

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