Author Topic: If You Can't Win The Election...  (Read 1507 times)

Offline Nash

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If You Can't Win The Election...
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2000, 10:14:00 PM »
Lol  

It's so a matter of perspective. Republicans see these 19,000 people as morons. Democrats see them as victims. So typical by both sides  

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2000, 10:15:00 PM »
Heard this evening on Fox News from a Democratic Senator that by Florida law the incumbent party of the serving governor is always listed first on the ballot to be followed second by the largest challenger. I know it was listed this way on my ballot in Tampa (Hillsborough County). I know it wasn't listed this way in Palm County. I don't know legally what that implicates but the democrat lawyer was sure excited about it. It might be the loop hole they were looking for.

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Offline Nash

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« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2000, 10:25:00 PM »
Eagler - from what I understand... The ballot that the people in PBC were faced with was different from the rest of the State, and was also appearently different from the sample ballot sent out prior to the election. I havent been able to verify that though. Anyone know?

[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 11-09-2000).]

Offline easymo

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« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2000, 11:13:00 PM »
 The ballots were printed in the local newspaper. But that brings us back to that pesky, need to know how to read, thing

Offline Nash

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« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2000, 11:32:00 PM »
What I'm saying is that what was printed in the paper *differed* from what the voters were faced with. Again... I haven't been able to double check that. Also, the voter instruction booklet in Palm Beach was completely wrong in how to go about selecting the appropriate box.

Offline CavemanJ

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« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2000, 11:41:00 PM »
Ripsnort posted an interesting thread that states precedents to this kind of situation.  Basically those people asking for a "re-vote" because they dinnae take the time to READ properly (wow, an extra 30-60seconds for a MAJOR decision) were stuck with thier mistakes.  It wasn't anyone's fault but thier own for not taking that extra 30-60seconds.

I've seen the image of the ballot, and there is absolutely nothing confusing about it.  Last time I actually used a voting machine (been absentee for almost 5yr now) I got to look at the ballot before I put it into the machine, and I knew exactly which holes to punch when I put it in the machine.  When I saw the image of the PBC ballot it was no different, I knew exactly which one to punch within 20second of looking at it.

Maybe I'm alot more intelligent than the average PBC democrat.

What it boils down to is these people are crying for not doing thier DUTY to take a few extra minutes and make sure they marked thier ballot correctly for thier choice.  Now they're trying to avoid personal responsibility for thier mistakes by crying the ballot was confusing.
Got one thing to say to that claim:
   

Now Gore and his crew are being a bunch of spoiled brat crybabies.  Support the idiots who screwed up and try to blame someone else, then file a suit of thier own, then withdraw that suit so they can take a little more time and draw up a larger suit to file.

And all of this after Gore had called Bush to concede the race.  As far as I'm concerned that's where it should've ended.  Gore threw in the towel.  Now he's a spoiled brat who sees a chance to manipulate the media and public to try and get his way.  And he said he dinnae want to divide the country... yeah, right.

[This message has been edited by CavemanJ (edited 11-09-2000).]

Offline Nash

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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2000, 12:26:00 AM »
Cave - strip away the insulting, innacurate and disengenous rhetoric of your post and get back to me. I'm sure there's something relevant there... but who's gonna wade through all that to find it?

Offline Crapgame

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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2000, 12:31:00 AM »
Fellas, I've been following this entire mess and I'd like to weigh in here. Couple of things I haven't seen mentioned.

1. I have used the butterfly ballot several times before. Both in California and here in Nevada. It is terribly simple if you only take a moment to READ the ballot.

2. I have seen on Newsmax.com where with the continued counting of ballots from absentees nationwide, Bush has narrowed the popular vote to within 100,000 with an estimated 2-3 million still outstanding. This isn't getting much play in the mainstream media but it strikes me that Bush could still secure a popular vote victory.

3. There has been tremendous hue and cry over alleged fraud in Florida. I have seen little mainstream media coverage of the fraud alleged in Democratic strongholds such as St. Louis and Milwaukee. There are several states, Iowa, Wisconsin, New Mexico where Bush lost by fewer than 5,000 votes. The Democratic Party has a history of vote stealing. As a student of American History, (majored in it) I am well aware that both parties have stolen elections in the past. However, the Democratic Party's history is better documented and more extensive than the Republicans.

I have been dismayed by the entire scene. I am trying to remain upbeat but I think if the recount in Florida goes against Bush, he will simply concede, while if it goes against Gore he will take the fight to the courts. This will speak volumes as to which is the man of honor.

I honestly believe that in it's heart of hearts, America is a conservative country, in someways the election mirrors that. The people don't seem to want any real change especially economically. On the other hand, perhaps we've sold our souls and social mores for a few more bucks in our wallet by not extending a significant mandate to Mr. Bush. I thought it was lock. Looking at the USA Today county by county vote map it seems to me that the city vs. the country has polarized the nation.

I still pray that Mr. Bush will yet take the reins of the country. But then I ask myself if it might not be a Pyrhhic victory.


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Offline Nash

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« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2000, 01:48:00 AM »
1) It was simple for you. Good. Is this an election or some kind of school test? A ballot's only function is to register the will of each voter. That there was any confusion, let alone the numbers reported in Florida, is unfortunate. *You're* ease with the ballot, however, has nothing to do with it. Unless your saying that the people of less... I don't know.... reading/comprehension skill, hand/eye coordination... whatever... don't deserve a say in their own destiny.

2) You have that wrong. NewsMax isn't reporting the vote to be "within' 100,000...". Their tally, as of this post, is 193,434 more votes going to Gore.

3) Not true - nobody is crying fraud in Florida. However, like you, I have also seen no mainstream media coverage of the fraud alleged in St. Louis and Milwaukee. I also haven't seen any "alternative" media reporting that. Where are you getting that? Further, exactly what has either party's past WRT election stealing got to do with this election?


Offline Dnil

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« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2000, 01:55:00 AM »
I like your idea easymo, but it wouldnt be fair.  Liberals dont like guns, Gore might accidently shoot himself.

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LJK Raubvogel

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« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2000, 02:50:00 AM »
2 quick points:

1)Now that those voters in Florida know that the whole Presidential Election rides on their votes, how do you ensure a fair voting process? You quite simply CANNOT. How many votes will Nader or Buchanan get now that those same voters know that those 2 options aren't viable?

2) I haven't seen anyone on the board mention anything of the approxiamtely 20,000 voters in the Florida panhandle who are saying that they didn't bother to vote after the media declared Gore the winner in Florida prematurely. You see, the media forgot one very important fact; those voters were in a different time zone than the rest of Florida. Many voters were still in line, or on their way to the polls, when the media had already given the state to Gore. They still had an hour to vote because of the time difference. What should be done in that situation?

In short, as long as the letter of the law was followed, whoever wins the recount should win the state. The country is on the edge of setting a very dangerous precedent.

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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2000, 05:43:00 AM »
Please re-read my last point above. If this is accurate, it will spell trouble for the Republicans. The issue was the first described as the alignment of the candidates to the punch holes but if by law, Gore was suppose to be listed 2nd, it is an illegal ballot. At the risk of sounding paranoid, I think it was planned this way. Follow me on this one:
1) A Democrat creates this ballot knowing if it went to court it would be deemed illegal.
2) This would not have been an issue if gore won by a huge majority as I do not think anyone would have caught it.
3) Another Democrat now points out this error to the rest of us, thus in their minds, requiring a re-vote in the areas of FL which used this "illegal" ballot.(Not all area did, I had a different format)
4) The re-vote is done two to three weeks after the election in which time the democrats have time to whip their supporters into a frenzy, ie Jesse Jackson, and paint the Bush group as the big "evil" of the country.
5) gore's appointment is in the bag as the re-vote puts him over the top in FL. Gives him numbers the military vote can not overcome.

Sad, scary, very possible if you ask me. The entire thing smells of a democ- RAT!

Eagler
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Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2000, 06:25:00 AM »
I agree, this whole thing could boil down to a point of law:

Was the ballot in accordance with state statute, which describes exactly how the ballot must look?

It is a YES or NO issue.

The fact that Democrats and Republicans both approved this ballot before the election is irrelevent.

The Democrats and Republicans cannot take away the right of a voter to have a ballot that is in conformance to law.

So, lets assume that the ballot in Palm Beach County, FL was illegal.

What do you do about it?
.
.
.
.



[This message has been edited by Gunthr (edited 11-10-2000).]
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Offline Kieren

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« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2000, 09:05:00 AM »
I for one have noticed one similarity between Gore and Clinton; the minute it looks like Gore might become president he asks for a "hand job".  
 
In all seriousness, it is the responsibility of the respective political committees to certify ballots before the election. This is to prevent events like we are now enduring. This was done in accordance with the law, and no complaints were raised. It is also the responsibility of the populace to educate themselves in the process. This may or may not have been done, but it is not the responsibility of the government to step in and protect people from their own ignorance.

No laws were broken, unless you want to obfuscate on the meaning of the law. This is precisely why 50 lawyers flew down to Florida. Folks, you are gonna hear some wonderful derivations of Florida voting law soon.

It was a close election, but it was as legal an election as we are likely to ever get. Gore lost, and the absentee votes will further verify this point (if the history of absentee military voting is any indication). To selectively revote in strong Democratic counties is not going to get a fair result. Thanks to our liberal media many voters went home after hearing the results of the state were in. Why stand in line when the state has been decided?

Gore is becoming the master of doublespeak, for sure. He doesn't want to divide the country, but dragging this thing through court will certainly accomplish division. Even now the Democrats are raising money to support lawsuits against the state of Florida. That ought to unify the state, much less the country!

Fact is, we are going to see recount after recount until the Democrats get the result they are seeking, pure and simple. In the meantime, they are laying the groundwork for a long legal battle in the event the recount process is exhausted. The war of rhetoric is begun, and this is going to be sorely embarassing for us all.

By all means, give Gore his hand job. Maybe Monica can personally fly down to Florida to oversee the process.  

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2000, 11:08:00 AM »
So, lets assume that the ballot in Palm Beach County, FL was illegal.
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From a judical point of view you simply throw those PBC precinct ballots away.  There can be no re-vote.  The only way I will accept another vote is for the entire nation to do so and this is not supported in the constitution.

Yeager

PS Leonid,
I could not reply to your email due to a mail server error.  In any event, you are a skilled opponent and a pleasure to compete with and against.  Please dont let this off topic discussion taint your view of the game.

[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 11-10-2000).]
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