Author Topic: Learning how to do a "flat scissors"  (Read 521 times)

Offline Samalpar

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Learning how to do a "flat scissors"
« on: August 29, 2006, 08:19:23 PM »
Hello, I was just wondering if someone can tell me the specifics of performing this manuver. I know what its SUPPOSED to do , (have it used on me all the time) but how do I go about doing it.

Questions.

What speed do I need to be. When I break a certain direction, how long do I go that direction before rolling and breaking back in the opposite direction.

Do I use flaps (to make the other over shoot). Do I use gears (as I have heard some use).

In plain, how is this done, step by step.

Thanks in advance.

Offline SAS_KID

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Learning how to do a "flat scissors"
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2006, 09:12:33 PM »
It doesn't matter what speed to be just gotta get in side his turn. Plus, try rolling scissors it saves E and a lot more harder to hit. But its hard to explain its a LOT easier to show.
Quote from: hitech on Today at 09:27:26 AM
What utter and compete BS, quite frankly I should kick you off this bbs for this post.

The real truth is you do not like the answer.

HiTech

Offline SkyRock

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Re: Learning how to do a "flat scissors"
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2006, 11:23:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Samalpar
Hello, I was just wondering if someone can tell me the specifics of performing this manuver. I know what its SUPPOSED to do , (have it used on me all the time) but how do I go about doing it.

Questions.

What speed do I need to be. When I break a certain direction, how long do I go that direction before rolling and breaking back in the opposite direction.

Do I use flaps (to make the other over shoot). Do I use gears (as I have heard some use).

In plain, how is this done, step by step.

Thanks in advance.

always calculate your manuvers as a reaction to what he is doing.  Hence, there is no set speed/move/order to any counter movements.  They simply should all be reactionary!  watch him from whatever view is applicable and do whatever it takes to place yourself with a gun solution on him without giving him a gun solution on you!:aok

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline Sweet2th

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Learning how to do a "flat scissors"
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2006, 12:09:25 AM »
basic version: fly around offline or in the training arena for a 1/2 hour at a time looking only out the back of the plane for this exercise helps with your situational awareness.its all about how close the target is to you when you do the scissors that matters.when you see the enemy get to within 400 off your six break to one direction say break left, as soon as you get going left  you need to be going to the right, as soon as your going to the right start going left.it is a simple manuver with the idea of causing the other players plane to overshoot yours.when this manuver is performed you should be at full power and possibly using wep toward the end of the manuver.it is a risky manuver in a 2 on 1 or more fight.it is one of the best things in this game to do for usually the enemy runs away and waits till you turn around to re-engage.when performing the scissors manuver you can possibly make the enemy overshoot giving you a easy 6 kill.

now your average pilot when caught up in the scissors manuver will try to get away from you which leads to you only having a second or 2 to get a good shot in on the enemy plane so make it count.

defending the scissors: this is really simple strategy, when you are chasing an enemy plane and the enemy pulls the scissors manuver you will know when it on its second turn, at this point you need to climb straight up while peeking over the front to keep an eye on them.the enemy slows way down and you dive back in on the target turning the altitude you just gained from climbing into speed while diving.

hope some of this helps and i am usually in the training arena helping those who need it.

Offline Schatzi

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Learning how to do a "flat scissors"
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2006, 01:48:14 AM »
The objective in flat scissors is the same as in all overshoot tactics. You try
to reduce your FORWARD movement as much as possible to force the opponent out front.

The basic maneuver looks like a zig zag flight path. You make a (hard) break turn in one direction, then you change direction again.Use rudder to help your roll (also adds a little sideslip and makes you a more difficult target) and drop flaps if you need to (speed!).

As you can well imagine, if you do this in a regular rythm, the opponent just has to *anticipate* your next position and shoot. So, *never* ever get a rythm going. Make it irregular. Rolex once told me to count down, randomly, from a number between 1 and 5 back to 0 (direction change) - that worked for me.
Even *better* is watching your opponent. Hell probably be following your turn a split second later. As soon as you see him getting his wings lined up with yours (=shooting position!) - change direction. By staying "out of phase" like this youll make it a lot more difficult for him to hit you.

Speed: Well, id would say as fast as possible but as slow as possible to make the guy overshoot. Now i know that probably isnt very helpful - in the arena, youll have to fly the maneuver at whichever speed you get caught at. How *slow* you get while scissoring depends on how tight you have to pull your turns to make it work. If you have an enemy that has lots of escess E (is a lot faster then you), you will just have to pull a few lazy sweeps at full throttle and hell be past you. If the E states and planes are more even matched, you might have to go off throttle and maybe even drop flaps when starting your turns, slowing down to stall speeds.

Extensive use of flaps/gears. Yes, that *might* help - ive used it in the past. But you have to be aware of the consequences and carefully pick the situations in which to do it. Doing all that will slow you down heavily .Yes, i know, thats intended, BUT: Youll be left, low, slow - no E - and an easy kill for others around or the opponent your trying to make overshoot if the scissors fail to work.


By flying zig zag, you reduce your forward moving speed far below minimum flying speed. That, as well as the fact that the opponent will follow you in lead turns (hes trying to shoot you!) will play for the overshoot.


 is a film of Schutt scissoring a Spit in his 109 that shows what happens. Best watch that one in External View with Trails, Icons and Recorded Views checked. Notice how Schutt keeps watching the Spit and adjusts his turns. The Spit overshoots fast, only getting a few pings... as soon as hes out front he pays the price.
The film also demonstrates the dangers of a scissor. You get yourself usually low and always SLOW. That leaves you open for attacks, since you dont have many options. In this case the a6m took advantage of Schutts position.





Edit: If you have enough Advil at home and want a more detailed explanation on scissoring - THIS is a very good article on scissoring. It helped me understand a lot about the inner workings of 1 vs 1 fighting.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2006, 02:02:40 AM by Schatzi »
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Offline Mace2004

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Learning how to do a "flat scissors"
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2006, 10:02:03 AM »
You need to think of a scissors as a slow race similar to slow racing a bicycle, he that has the slowest down range speed (i.c., in the general direction the scissors is going) wins.  Your goal is to get behind his wingline preferably with an altitude advantage forcing him out front.  Generally speaking here are a few general rules: the guy who can fly slowly best wins; airplanes with good roll rates for quick reversals have the advantage; and lose sight lose the fight.  It can be very difficult to keep track of your opponent in a scissors, particularly if you've gained an altitude advantage but you absolutely must do this.

The two components of the scissors is the s turn which causes you to travel a greater distance for the same down-range travel and slow speed.  By slow speed I mean you need to get slow and you need to slow down quickly.  How slow, depends on the situation.  If the scissors starts at 300 mph then slowing to 150 may work.  If your opponent is obviously going for the scissors slow down to 80.  Whatever the speed is the greater the difference between your speed and your adversaries the better.  This at first may seem illogical but the guy who slows down the quickest has the best chance of ending the scissors quickly and usually has the best chance of surviving overall.  If you stay just a little slower than your opponent you'll probably eventually win but only after a protracted scissors during which you're completely predictable and vulnerable to pickers.  

Raise your nose and momentarily drop gear if you have to but then get the gear back up, do not fight a scissors with the gear down.  I laugh when I see some guy flying around with his gear down.  Once he's slow all of his power is being used to overcome the drag from the gear which is a bad thing.  Chop your throttle, use the gear as a speed brake to slow down, drop the flaps and then, once you're slow, immediately go to full power (with WEP), raise the gear and fly nose high using lots of rudder to help your rolls and pull for a position behind and above your opponent's wingline.  Do not pull directly at him unless you've got a clear shot opportunity.  After each reversal your flight paths will cross so keep an eye out for a potential snap-shot but don't go for it unless you're pretty sure you can get it because it'll cost you position if you fail.  

Keep your nose high and convert any excess power to altitude.  This is for five reasons.  Staying nose high keeps you slow.  If you have any excess thrust you can climb some doing this and store e (not all airplanes can do this).  If your opponent tries to bug out from a lower altitude you can dump your nose and catch him.  If you get sufficient vertical separation you can use this to lead turn him in the vertical without waiting for a chance crossing shot.  Last, if things to badly (pickers or you get defensive, etc.) then you can convert the altitude to speed to give you a chance to bugout.  

Speaking of bugouts, the best way is to reverse into him and lower your nose to take him as close to 180 out as possible passing him nose low and accelerating.  He should still be nose high and, in the ideal situation, must make a 180 degree turn to follow you.

Last let me say this about "reacting" to your opponent.  If you're defensive you will have to reverse when he does but your goal is to drive the fight and force him to react to you so think a few steps beyond what you're doing at the moment and plan your moves.  Once you get neutral or offensive you want to be the first to reverse to gain the attacker's advantage and force him to reverse before he's ready.  If you reverse and he delays that's to your advantage.

Mace
Mace
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Offline Samalpar

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Learning how to do a "flat scissors"
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2006, 03:48:23 PM »
Thanks too everyone who responded.

Offline Samalpar

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Learning how to do a "flat scissors"
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2006, 03:48:23 PM »
Thanks too everyone who responded.