Author Topic: projectors...good or bad idea (Read 471 times)

UdieNow · « **on:** August 29, 2006, 05:37:57 PM »

Hello All

Just changed over from a laptop to my g/f's Dell desktop. Its not a bad system now:

DIM3000
Celeron(R) CPU 2.40 GHz
1 gig RAM
built in vid card.
15 inch crt monitor:(

I realize i should prob either buy/build a new comp, but its just not in the budget right now. Anyways, I was wondering if someone could suggest a decent vid card that would support a video projector. ( or if its even worth it )

Thanks in advance for any input:aok

Krusty · « **Reply #1 on:** August 29, 2006, 05:43:27 PM »

Don't do projectors. They're not meant for fast refresh times, and most have an artificial delay built in because of the way the projector works (Laptop hooked to the projector shows in real time, there's a lag before the projector updates to show what the laptop is showing).

Just don't do 'em.

UdieNow · « **Reply #2 on:** August 30, 2006, 08:57:17 AM »

Well that bites. Guess i wont have a 7ft screen of AH2 then.
Might make a trip to mall on weekend ato take a look at some monitors and vid cards then.
What are some good ones??

llama · « **Reply #3 on:** August 30, 2006, 05:39:20 PM »

If I may humbly interject here...

I have been flying EXCLUSIVELY with a projector for 6 or 7 years, and I've even been providing them for the various Cons I've attended, so I have a little experience on the subject.

Games like Aces High do no require ultra-fast refresh rates like First Person Shooters and other "twitch" games do. Think about how quickly things move across the screen in AH compared to your other games - in comparison, on-screen elements move at a snail's pace.

With things like Counter Strike Source, using the projector seems to introduce a teeny tiny bit of delay when things jump out at you. How often does this happen in AH? Never.

Projector Advice? Here you go:

1. You really need to get a projector that has a native resolution of 1024x768 or greater. DO NOT get one that is only 800x600 that claims to "interpolate" higher resolution graphics down, since you'll get "jaggies" on all your images, and no pinpoint precision for your aiming.

2. Brightness is measured in Lumens. If the unit has 1200 lumens or less, you'll really only be able to play in a dark-ish room -- that is, after sunset. If it has 1800 lumens or more, you can play in a bright room in the daytime.

3. Think about placement. Projectors normally need at least 10 feet of room to throw an image, and some need more space then that. Mine needs about 15, and is actually 20 feet away. This means you'll probably be sitting between the projector and your screen (or white wall). THIS in turn means your head will probably be casting a shadow on the wall (a bad thing) unless you take steps to correct it. Mounting the projector high on a shelf or upside down on a ceiling helps. Having a chair that reclines helps too. I have built a custom-cockpit (http://www.warrenernst.com/photos/cockpit/cockpit001.jpg) that works perfectly for this, keeping my head low but supported.

4. Think about cabling. If the projector is 10 feet from your computer, you need at least 10 feet of high quality, low impedance, VGA (or DVI) extension cable. I actually have 60 feet (30 feet out, 30 feet back), and HIGH QUALITY cables make a world of difference at these lengths.

So, with all that said, is it worth it? OH MY GOD YES!!! When you use a projector and a good joystick setup, you start to look down on those VR Gaming Simulators you see in Las Vegas. It is totally immersive and involving. Add surround-sound Headphones and and TrackIR, and the resulting gaming experience is nothing less than stunning.

Don't listen to people who don't have 'em...

-Llama

Krusty · « **Reply #4 on:** August 30, 2006, 05:44:30 PM »

Llama you might say that Ah isn't the same as "twitch" games, and that's true.

However the reaction timing is the same. If you have a con zooming past your nose in rolling scissors and you delay your snap shot even for a moment, you will miss. If you have a con that's rolling and bobbing and weaving, a fast response will mean missing or hitting it.

As to how much the projector delay affects this timing, I can't say first-hand, I've only seen projectors used for presentations and classes.

UdieNow · « **Reply #5 on:** August 30, 2006, 07:48:51 PM »

Nice set up Llama. sure beats my kitchen chair at the computer desk.
What kind of vid card/adapter you use?

krusty: i really dont have to worry about missing a quick shot, since the only time I see the enemys six is as i bail from a flaming plane:D

llama · « **Reply #6 on:** August 31, 2006, 10:24:46 AM »

To answer some questions:
Udie: (oh, and is this the same Udie from WB? If so, "hi!")

My rig is fairly modest by today's standards: A Northwood-based Pentium 4 running at 3 GHz, and an ATI 9800Pro with the 9800XT's BIOS, GPU, cooler, and clockspeed. Toss in an Audigy 2 LS sound card (and its fully functional gameport, needed for all the old Thrustmaster stuff) and fold it all into a SFF case (you know, those shoebox-sized computers) for easy transport to Cons, other gaming conventions, and LAN parties, and there you go. Oh, and there's the previously mentioned Medusa 5.1 surround-sound headphones, and the TrackIR 3 I won at the 2004 Con. Being a computer consultant, it goes without saying that Windows is unburdened by any needless background tasks, and is running at peak efficiency.

That said, I get high framerates and with generous detail settings enabled (along with FSAA). I just keep the resolution down to 1024x768. Generally, folks can't believe the image quality I'm getting on such hardware with the framerates I'm getting. 1028x768 with FSAA seems to be the key here.

Krusty:

Look, I totally understand what you're saying. I would be telling people buying a LCD monitor for gaming the same thing. Heck, *I DO* tell my clients that.

But all I can tell you is that the theoretical delays a projector should introduce really don't affect Aces High (or Warbirds, for that matter) in any way. Snapshots and rolling scissors just aren't a problem, or any different then when I occasionally must play with my CRT-based monitor. At the Cons, there's usually been something of a line of players waiting to try the game out on the big screen - and no one have ever noticed any visual lag, or at least no one has ever mentioned it to me.

(And here's something I've never posted about before: for those tours this year where I've actually had time to settle in and fly regularly -- two tours so far -- I've had a fighter rank in the double-digits. This isn't to boast, but to suggest that flying and shooting on the projector doesn't seem to be negatively impacting my ability to track, shoot at, and hit targets.)

Again, try it before discounting it.

-Llama

Krusty · « **Reply #7 on:** August 31, 2006, 10:30:43 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by llama
But all I can tell you is that the theoretical delays a projector should introduce really don't affect Aces High (or Warbirds, for that matter) in any way. Snapshots and rolling scissors just aren't a problem, or any different then when I occasionally must play with my CRT-based monitor.

Cool

Good to know!

I didn't mean to totally come off as pessimistic. I just wanted to bring up that one point.

Airscrew · « **Reply #8 on:** August 31, 2006, 11:10:42 AM »

llama, I remember when you brought your projector to the con a couple of years, looked pretty good.
so two questions.
When you where at the con I think you just used a bed sheet as a screen, What do you use for a screen at home
and
I heard the life expectancy of the bulbs were short and expensive to replace, true or not?

llama · « **Reply #9 on:** August 31, 2006, 01:06:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Airscrew
llama, I remember when you brought your projector to the con a couple of years, looked pretty good.
so two questions.
When you where at the con I think you just used a bed sheet as a screen, What do you use for a screen at home
and
I heard the life expectancy of the bulbs were short and expensive to replace, true or not?

Airscrew,

I still use a relatively old projector (again, its the same one I've had for the past 6 or 7 years.) Bulbs for it run about $400 ($279 at some non-epson shops), and in mine, are rated to last for 2000 hours. There's a circuit board and timer that keeps track of things, and at 2000 the bulb MUST be replaced, but there are ways to fooling the projector into running the bulb until it truly burns out. Most projectors have similar setups, but I would assume bulb costs have come down for newer units.

After all these years, I think I still have 600 hours left on the projector, so I have a way to go. They are surprisingly reliable, as my projector has criss-crossed the country many times in a backpack and still works fine.

(At the time, my projector was selling new for around $4000, which needless to say I did NOT have to pay for, and bulbs were priced accordingly. A modern similar unit, such as an Epson Powerlite76c costs $899, and is actually brighter, quieter, and lighter. Its bulb is $300. Hmm. I guess that technology is still expensive.)

As for a surface, I am lucky that my home-office has bright white walls, so I just use them. If I didn't, I would buy a pull-down projector screen off ebay for around $100 or so.

Hope this helps,
Llama

Airscrew · « **Reply #10 on:** August 31, 2006, 01:42:01 PM »

thanks for the info llama. my wife and I were toying with the idea of getting a large screen TV since the new Plasam and LCD TVs were driving down the prices of the old sets. but then we saw some of the projectors wondered if those would be better or the same. If a bulb only as a 2000 hour life then it doesnt sound practical to use as a TV unless I want to buy new bulbs every two years or so.

UdieNow · « **Reply #11 on:** August 31, 2006, 05:02:16 PM »

Wow, thanks for the advice llama. ( sorry, never played WB, this is my first flight sim besides Il-2.)

hmm...3 months 25 days....better start that list...

ajax501 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 06, 2006, 10:18:53 AM »

Hi Airscrew - You can use a blank wall for a screen, and it's not too hard to
put together a cheap translucent screen.

I've been flightsimming for a few years with projectors, just recently got
addicted to AH! WOW

Krusty, DLP projectors don't have the lag problem you describe in my experience.
- they have pretty fast refresh rates. (LCD projectors have
a very bad lag problem, as you accurately point out). The DLP's are also
getting cheaper. There have been re-furbished beamers for $500 at TigerD.

llama has some great tips! There are also some tips at my website:
http://www.3DFlightSim.com I'm not trying to sell anything at AH !!
It's just that projectors are so cool for flightsimming ... just FYI

UdieNow · « **Reply #13 on:** September 06, 2006, 11:27:59 AM »

THanks All. with all this info, it looks like a projector is in the works for Christmas time.
Guess the next thing might be a trackin system thingy....