My suggestion/solution to all the grumbling.

[Guppy35]

Not perfect by any means but potentially one that could happen with a minimum of fuss.

Basically it comes down to renaming the AvA the A to A, with the MA remaining the same.  No chance to AvA, just a redefining of expectations.

It means us 'furbal/ACM types" would have to do the work in making it happen and put our money where our mouths are, but it's doable. AvA is always looking for bodies anyway and it might be helpful to both arenas.  I don't think they'd take it personally if there was an influx of air to air guys.


With that in mind my MoTD for both arenas as someone enters.

MA Rules of Conduct

Anything goes so quit complaining if you don’t like it.  This is war!


A to A Rules of Conduct

-This is a game. It’s about air combat.  Nothing else matters in here.

-Be open and willing to help the new guys coming into the arena.  It’s up to the vets to set a good example and to teach if they can.

-Trash talk is looked down upon.  The goal is to make people feel welcome, not drive them away.  There are good people on both sides, and this is just a game after all.

-You may not get your favorite ride as the plane set switches.  Live a little.  Most WW2 pilots didn't start in 1945 rides.  You might find the challenge is fun in learning a new bird.

-Interrupting a 1 v 1 by picking or jumping in the fight is frowned upon unless specifically asked.  Even then the guy in the 1 v 1 ought to be willing to see the fight out and die if need be since he gets a new plane and life anyway.

-There are no ‘kills landed’ messages here.  You should have grown out of this by now.  No one really dies and planes are free so have at it.  You might learn something and get better.  If you need an ‘attaboy’ you are in the wrong place.  you might get a for a well fought combat.

-"dying" is not a sin.  In fact it can be a good thing in a quest for more knoweldge and skill in air to air combat.

-HO’s are frowned upon.  Try some ACM, you might get better and you might find you enjoy it.

-Gang banging/hording is frowned upon.  Try out your ACM skills, you might be surprised how well you can do 1 v 1, or 2 v 2.

-Hiding in the ack is frowned upon as is running from a fight.  No one really dies and planes are free.  Take a chance you might win.

-Vulching is frowned upon

-Fights should be away from the airfields so that people have a chance to get some alt and E.

-You can’t reset the map, so leave your bombs at home.

-There is no limit on side switching so keep the sides even. When you enter the arena go to the low number side.  Shooting a squadie is good for you now and then.

[Dichotomy]

[Kuhn]

Sounds good to me.

[Major Biggles]

while it's highly unlikely, i'd really love to see it, an arena where people fight to their heart's content, no score crap, no base taking, bombing might be fun sometimes, but only for bombing factories, and just the joy of a few historic missions, buffs, escorts and interceptors etc.

we do already have something pretty similar though, the DA, it's just no-one ever goes in there except for a few duels. if there were some steady numbers in there, people like us, who just want to fight, i'd never go into the MA, just the TA and DA, it's just a matter of actually getting people to do it

[storch]

the problem with that is that there is no way to enforce rules and perhaps there shouldn't be.  people pay their $14.95 and will play just about any darned way they please.  

in my opinion the AvA is never worse than when there are a bunch of pedantic MA types who come in do as they please with intent to mess up the game play, complain that "this is just like the MA only worse" and log off.  no amount of explaining that it's just like the MA only when they are on makes any difference.

the AvA is going through a cycle of redefinition and it's losing "regulars" and no one is stopping in to replace them.  the concept of the AvA will never have mass appeal and that's a good thing.  

all of my most memorable fights have occurred in the AvA and most of those have been with fewer than ten players playing.  The AvA is a great place to hone your skills because most of the people you will fight will be very proficient in their plane of choice.  

the most glaring example of what is wrong with the AvA and it's pro MA leanings currently would be two squads whose members should be playing in P40s, P47s or P51s but are usually found in whatever is easymode and then hording at 20k.  all in the name of "scwad tackticks" but in reality is just pure cartoon fear and JG54 envy

the only way to keep the play atmosphere many of you are looking for would be for all participants who enter the arena be held accountable through peer pressure to conform to the arena rules and standard of play and if not booted from the arena for a specified period of time.  who is willing to babysit the arena every night?

[Dichotomy]

I've been popping in the DA off and on since Hajo proposed it.  Had one good night but haven't seen anybody since.  I like going to the Axis VS Allies idea just as well but if I may make a suggestion on both proposals.  Set a schedule initially so people can make plans to be there when other people will.  I do believe the idea will grow in popularity in either arena and the schedule will eventually become unnecessary as more people got involved.  Make the 'rules' clear and enforce them as a group.  If one of 'your' guys gets out of line let him know that's not cool.

From what I've read about the 'downfall' of the MA is that as new people came in and just jumped in planes the old 'gentlemens rules' of how to conduct yourself just went out the window.  It's human nature to take the path of least resistance so, while I don't blame the landgrabbers and the hoardes, I can see how that would frustrate some of the old vets.  Trust me when I say that some of us and I'd even hazard to guess that a large number of us noobs WANT to play the game for the air battle but most don't take the time to read, learn, and figure stuff out.  Such is life in the 21st century (give me my fun NOW I don't want to have to work for it).

I saw it first hand last night when I wanted to get a little ACM in before snapshot.  I had to up 2 sectors away because the nearest base was down and, as soon as I got to the fight, it was over and there were no cons available.  *shrug* such is life I suppose.

Whatever you old vets decide to do I'm all for just let me know when and I'll make every effort to at least show up and get shot down until it grows to where at almost any reasonable hour of the day or night when I want to furball I can find one without having to fly half way across the map.

One word of caution I'd like to put out there and this is coming from years of experience in dealing with human nature.  You're not going to change peoples minds by establishing a contrarian position with them from the get go.  Or in other words it's easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar.

I think it's time to drop the griping about the hoardes etc and just build something that the air battle guys and gals can enjoy on a regular basis.  I believe that will draw more people to it and, overall, be a win win for both the players and Hitech enterprises.

As usual just my opinion.

PS.  Whoever tattooed 'BK's Rule' rule on my forehead while I was passed out at Schatzis congrat party better not ever let me get 200 yds behind them

PPS.  Storch... I've got a lot of experience with communities and I've seen where IF the large section of the community sticks to a set conduct and teaches that conduct to new people who come in the majority of the time it works.  It just takes some strong will to keep it working.

[storch]

clearly peer pressure works but who can apply peer pressure to the MA?  Last night, before I logged off from FT some tards were upping bombers to hit the nit field (I'm guessing)  when I asked them not to do that I was told to go f_ _ k myself.  I logged off. contemplated the suggestion but determined it as impracticle, jumping frau storch instead.

[Clifra Jones]

My suggestion is to turn the AvA into an Advanced Arena. Turn off all the easy-mode features we have int he MA. No stall limiter, no autotake off.

No stall limiter will keep the no-skill dweeb out until they learn how to fly because they will not be able to keep their plane in the air.

Also, I know the AvA purists won't like this but how about scrapping the Axis v Allied setup except for special event or maps. i.e. BOB. Some of the AvA plane sets are just not balanced and cause one side to have too great an advantage.

Perk planes above a certain ENY value to keep the late war birds numbers down.

We tried something like this in the old CT and it didn't really work. How about trying it for a week and put the donut map up. See if it draws players in. If not then we will know that it is a waste of time and that everyone is just beotching for beotchings sake.

[Dichotomy]

Originally posted by storch
clearly peer pressure works but who can apply peer pressure to the MA?  Last night, before I logged off from FT some tards were upping bombers to hit the nit field (I'm guessing)  when I asked them not to do that I was told to go f_ _ k myself.  I logged off. contemplated the suggestion but determined it as impracticle, jumping frau storch instead.

A fine solution to an inappropriate suggestion.  The peer pressure comes from the majority of the group adhering to the 'rules' such as they are.  You're outnumbered it's not worth arguing with a tard.  However if the majority of the people adhere to the same principles the tards go find something else to do.  Trust me I've been there before and even cleaned up a very active message board using this principle.  As I said I'm in for whatever solution you guys come up with and I'll offer my advice and support.  I'd say I'd take the lead on it but I can barely stay alive for 5 minutes at a time so I'd prefer someone that has a cool head and a lot of experience take the lead on this type of project.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by storch


the only way to keep the play atmosphere many of you are looking for would be for all participants who enter the arena be held accountable through peer pressure to conform to the arena rules and standard of play and if not booted from the arena for a specified period of time.  who is willing to babysit the arena every night?

That's the entire premise of my idea Storch.  Right now the MA is being run by the inmates.

It would take a real effort to make the AvA go that way, but if the people involved from the start set the standard and help new folks to it, it would remain a different and for many folks a better place to play.  I doubt it would ever get to MA numbers, but you might increase the crowd a bit if the ACM guys actually made the effort to work with it.

My fear is a lot of the guys complaining on 200 in the MA about HOs, LAs etc, would not go to an arena where they might get eaten alive for a while until they caught up.  Claiming to be a certain type of AH pilot while living in the horde is one thing.  Backing it up by how you fly is another

[Dichotomy]

As I said above let's make a decision and go.  I just spent the last minute in the DA and the only thing I saw was a 262... he ran into a mountain and that made me laugh but .. whatever decision is made I'm in

[pluck]

Originally posted by Dichotomy
As I said I'm in for whatever solution you guys come up with and I'll offer my advice and support.  I'd say I'd take the lead on it but I can barely stay alive for 5 minutes at a time so I'd prefer someone that has a cool head and a lot of experience take the lead on this type of project.

you know, game is hard, but when you challenge yourself constantly you will be surprised how quickly 5 minutes will turn into much longer:)  of course it is a viscous cycle....i've found it is much more fun to go down in a heroic blaze of glory:) dichotomy, it is nice to see newer players interested in air combat

maybe i'll bring my sorry behind back to AH soon, and i'll join ya:aok

[Dichotomy]

Back atcha Pluck... do so and bring everybody else back.  I make a fine target as proven by my laughable 'stats'

[Guppy35]

I get Vast killed all the time.....er....wait....he should be saving me....

[FrodeMk3]

Just a thought...Has anybody thought about using the backup MA? Maybe HTC could just keep it loaded with a FT Map, and appoint a rotating CM schedule like the Snapshots and FSO's, you might even be able to appoint multiple CM's, like trainers in the TA, so that you could always have some control. You could vote for the CM's here, on the BB's, So that HTC and the 'ballers could all agree on the choice, and everyone would be cool with it. The CM would be empowered to boot trash talkers, Vultures, runway warriors, whiners, etc......

     Flame it if you see an obvious flaw.

     -FrodeMk3